Stage setups for larger venues

[rpjazzguitar]

Quintet. Always guitar, bass, drum, and keys. Sometimes a vocalist, sometimes a saxophone.

We've been playing some larger spaces. We're trying to keep stage volume low. Well, low as possible.

The pianist puts two EVs on poles. One pointed to the audience one to the rest of the band.

I use a speaker on a pole, but I run the signal through a Little Jazz -- I usually turn the speaker off, but I don't have to.

Bassist goes through his own amp. Nothing else.

Drummer doesn't get mic'ed.

If I put my speaker behind me, it's too loud where I am if it's loud enough for the audience. So, today, I put it at one end of the stage and angled it so I could hear it - and so could the audience. Seemed to work, although at some point it started sounding very trebly and I'm not yet sure why.

The pianist's speaker (the one facing the band) couldn't face all of us at once. Needed dispersion was nearly 90 degrees. Should have worked better than it actually did. Not sure why.

So, as it turned out I couldn't hear much piano. I heard a lot of drums, horn and bass. I could hear the guitar if I turned up, but I had to stay lower to hear the piano well enough to phrase with him.

Sorry for all the detail. But maybe people could share the principles they use to set up in no-sound-man-situations.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Quintet. Always guitar, bass, drum, and keys. Sometimes a vocalist, sometimes a saxophone.

We've been playing some larger spaces. We're trying to keep stage volume low. Well, low as possible.

The pianist puts two EVs on poles. One pointed to the audience one to the rest of the band.

I use a speaker on a pole, but I run the signal through a Little Jazz -- I usually turn the speaker off, but I don't have to.

Bassist goes through his own amp. Nothing else.

Drummer doesn't get mic'ed.

If I put my speaker behind me, it's too loud where I am if it's loud enough for the audience. So, today, I put it at one end of the stage and angled it so I could hear it - and so could the audience. Seemed to work, although at some point it started sounding very trebly and I'm not yet sure why.

The pianist's speaker (the one facing the band) couldn't face all of us at once. Needed dispersion was nearly 90 degrees. Should have worked better than it actually did. Not sure why.

So, as it turned out I couldn't hear much piano. I heard a lot of drums, horn and bass. I could hear the guitar if I turned up, but I had to stay lower to hear the piano well enough to phrase with him.

Sorry for all the detail. But maybe people could share the principles they use to set up in no-sound-man-situations.

Sorry, I can't answer -- I never played larger places without our own FOH sound guy and another sound guy doing a seperate monitor mix and never without monitor wedges provided by the venue.

I heard from many American bands that Germany is very hospitable in that regard and very different from the US of A where the venues most of the time do provide nothing and you have to carry your own PA system. Here everywhere I played myself or worked as a lighting guy there were also stagehands who carried stuff and pushed cases -- very comfortable

How big is the venue you are playing?

[rpjazzguitar]

Today it was outdoors with the audience in an area maybe 100 feet deep and 70 feet wide. We also play one that is narrower but deeper.

By deep I mean stage to back row.

Not huge but big enough to have to think about it.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

If I understand you correctly, you have no sound reinforcement at all. Keyboard, bass, and guitar are all amplified but come through their own amps & speakers. You don’t mention any microphones, so I assume the sax (like the drum kit) is unmic’ed and the keyboard is the only thing coming through his EVs.

I think you need a sound system to cover 7000 square feet, with stage monitors. You just don’t have enough coverage without it. There are many formulas for sizing a sound system, and most are based on the desired SPL at the most distant points from the stage or playing area. Short of such calculations, I’d start with a pair of powered speakers (15” plus tweeter with at least 250W each) on poles at the front edges of your playing areas aimed at the audience, plus a pair of “footer” monitors inboard of the main speaker stands.

You’ll need a mixer with DI feeds or mics on keys, bass, guitar, and sax / vocal. And you probably ought to mic the drums with at least one overhead pair on boom stands. It seems like a lot of gear, but it’s the only way to keep stage volume low and fill a 7000 sq ft venue. With monitoring, you keep your individual amp volumes low if mic’ed and off if DI.

I prefer IEMs for monitoring because they block ambient sound (which also protects your hearing) and let you control exactly what each of you hears with no feedback issue at all. This requires a bit more sophistication in your mixer, but you don’t need the free standing monitors.

Without a sound system, you’re trusting luck and have too little control over your sound for venues over 3k to 4k sq ft, especially with high ceilings and/or a lot of people in the audience. When I need a system (which is rare), I rent it all. My regular drummer and I have our own IEMs. You should also carry a spare stereo amp. I bring my trusty old Alesis RA100.

[SetPhasersToSwing]

There will be (hopefully) lots of good advice shared about this but as someone who has been running the PA for a 6 piece wedding band for years and is about to start performing Jazz live with a trio and needs to think about these things, I wanted to chime in with some thoughts.

I had a feeling that, after your last thread about performing live and not getting a satisfactory guitar sound, you might eventually come to the place of thinking about external sound reinforcement ie a PA system.

@nevershouldhavesoldit is right, you need to get more control over the individual sources. I am sure everyone in your band is respectful of each other and no-one is turning themselves up unnecessarily but you actually don't know if that's true at the moment.

Without knowing the speaker sizes and power output of your pianist's speakers and your own I can only make some basic suggestions but here goes. It sounds like you have enough speakers between you to have two out front for the audience (stage right and stage left) and one facing back into the band to provide monitoring - your piano player is going to want lots of themselves in the monitor.

If you were able to get hold of a small mixer, 8 channels would probably suffice, you can plug in all of your rhythm section sources (Piano L+R, Guitar, Bass, Kick, Overheads [either stereo pair or a single condenser - the sound will carry, the PA is just for some extra spread]) and still have 2 channels free for vocals or sax. The guitar and bass amps then act as personal monitoring with the PA doing the heavy lifting.

How do you all place yourselves on stage/in the performance area. The classic band set up is drums in the middle, bass and guitar either side, keys either side of them and the vocalist or soloist in the middle. However, with Jazz, often the drums are off to the side facing into the band and the bass or keys are centre stage. These are the logistical questions that lots of musicians don't consider and you end up with the bass amp front and centre or the saxophonist has spread six different reeds across the stage before the drums have even loaded in

Anyway, this stuff interests me so I'm happy to see what everyone else thinks about it.

[AllanAllen]

I don’t play for the back row. They are back there to ignore the band, make the front row pleasant. They want to see you.

Keep that in mind and you’ll do great.

I have a powered QSC speaker for vocals. Guitar and bass have amps, trumpet and drums are acoustic. We’ve played dining areas 100x70ft and it’s fine.

Unless you’re playing a theater, give the people at the event who don’t want to listen a place to go. Nothings worse than someone at a wedding shutting down, unable to talk to relatives they haven’t seen in a decade because the band thinks they need to be playing sissy strut at 180db so the back of the room can hear.

Pay attention to the room, if nobody is in front of you, you’re probably too loud.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I don’t play for the back row. They are back there to ignore the band, make the front row pleasant. They want to see you.

I have a powered QSC speaker for vocals. Guitar and bass have amps, trumpet and drums are acoustic. We’ve played dining areas 100x70ft and it’s fine.

Unless you’re playing a theater, give the people at the event who don’t want to listen a place to go..

You’re conflating things that don’t go together. If you’re playing an active dining area, the audience is being seated by the staff, host, etc. Some of them may ask to be seated close to or far from the music. But they’re there to eat, talk to each other, and enjoy the music - in that order of importance. The goal is almost always to present the music as evenly as possible throughout the space without being intrusive.

I don’t understand why anyone would voluntarily go to a musical performance and ignore the band unless you’re not very good (in which case I’d just leave). If you’re there to provide background music, see the paragraph above.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I don’t play for the back row. They are back there to ignore the band, make the front row pleasant. They want to see you.

I have a powered QSC speaker for vocals. Guitar and bass have amps, trumpet and drums are acoustic. We’ve played dining areas 100x70ft and it’s fine.

Unless you’re playing a theater, give the people at the event who don’t want to listen a place to go..

You’re conflating things that don’t go together. If you’re playing an active dining area, the audience is being seated by the staff, host, etc. Some of them may ask to be seated close to or far from the music. But they’re there to eat, talk to each other, and enjoy the music - in that order of importance. The goal is almost always to present the music as evenly as possible throughout the space so that it’s neither too loud nor too soft for any diner.

If it’s not a dining venue, I don’t understand why anyone would voluntarily go to a musical performance and ignore the band unless the band is not very good (in which case I’d just leave). If you’re there to provide background music, see the paragraph above.

[AllanAllen]

I’m having dejavu all over again… Too loud is too loud, and most bands here are too loud.

If the goal is to reach the back of the room, you’ll be too loud for the front. You can’t sound evenly across an entire room, sound doesn’t work like that unless you’re uniformly blowing the top off the place.

I’ve seen jazz bands do that too… I have no idea who they think they’re playing for on a Sunday afternoon brunch gig, so loud I need earplugs…

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

If the goal is to reach the back of the room, you’ll be too loud for the front. You can’t sound evenly across an entire room, sound doesn’t work like that unless you’re uniformly blowing the top off the place.

I didn't say "evenly across an entire room". I said -

The goal is almost always to present the music as evenly as possible throughout the space so that it’s neither too loud nor too soft for any diner.

That's why we use multiple speakers and direct them as carefully as we can. I often point one or more speakers toward walls behind / around the stage and adjacent to the listening area. The walls act as reflectors and diffuse the sound much more evenly through a much wider sound field than pointing the speakers directly at the listening area. Varying the distance between the speakers and the reflecting surfaces by even a few inches changes the dispersion pattern and can really improve the evenness of sound distribution. Raising the sound system speaker poles well above the heads of the audience cuts beaming. And even a slightly irregular surface really diffuses eflected sound waves into the space.

I assume you're thinking of the fact that sound intensity drops off in proportion to the square of the distance from the source. But this is only for sound in a free field, which is a space through which sound waves can propogate without obstruction or interference. Reflections from boundary surfaces and objects in the space (like people, furniture, etc) grossly change sound pressure levels from point to point within that space. Absorptive surfaces reduce SPL. Soft furniture, curtains etc and people are great sound absorbers. So aiming and reflecting sound reinforcement along floors and walls as well as into the room can result in surprisingly even distribution among people seated there.

Of course it's not going to be exactly the same front and back. But if you know what you're doing, you can achieve a very good result.

[AllanAllen]

I agree with all of this. It seems you are using technique for sound coverage instead of sheer volume.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

I didn't say "evenly across an entire room". I said -


That's why we use multiple speakers and direct them as carefully as we can. I often point one or more speakers toward walls behind / around the stage and adjacent to the listening area. The walls act as reflectors and diffuse the sound much more evenly through a much wider sound field than pointing the speakers directly at the listening area. Varying the distance between the speakers and the reflecting surfaces by even a few inches changes the dispersion pattern and can really improve the evenness of sound distribution. Raising the sound system speaker poles well above the heads of the audience cuts beaming. And even a slightly irregular surface really diffuses eflected sound waves into the space.

I assume you're thinking of the fact that sound intensity drops off in proportion to the square of the distance from the source. But this is only for sound in a free field, which is a space through which sound waves can propogate without obstruction or interference. Reflections from boundary surfaces and objects in the space (like people, furniture, etc) grossly change sound pressure levels from point to point within that space. Absorptive surfaces reduce SPL. Soft furniture, curtains etc and people are great sound absorbers. So aiming and reflecting sound reinforcement along floors and walls as well as into the room can result in surprisingly even distribution among people seated there.

Of course it's not going to be exactly the same front and back. But if you know what you're doing, you can achieve a very good result.

The professional solution to spread the sound as evenly as possible over a larger venue or an outside space would be to use delay lines. The signals of several pairs of speakers on the left and right of the place usually in even distances from the main public adress system are electronically delayed so the sound from them reaches the audience at a certain place at the same time as the sound from the main PA. This way you can also reduce the level of the main PA.

But that is way beyond the budget of what we are talking about here and is not something a band could do easily themselves before the gig.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

I don’t play for the back row. They are back there to ignore the band, make the front row pleasant. They want to see you. [...]

I never had that experience but I also never played a function gig (is that the right term for those birthday/bar mitzwa/wedding/funeral etc. gigs?), only concerts. And my intention was always to touch anyone from the front row to the very back emotionally.

EDIT: There is one exception. I once pretended playing guitar (actually I was just moving my hands in the air) at a Sinti Jehovah's Witnesses funeral LOL. At that time I did not know how to play any standards but my gypsy buddy who had been hired told me that people expected seeing a guitar player but would not realize that I wasn't actually playing. So he and that Russian Jewish violinist would play and I would act only haha.

[rpjazzguitar]

I appreciate all the points people have made.

The pianist owns two pairs of speakers. He brings one. In this case, the smaller one, and they were more than loud enough.
He could, if he was willing, bring both and set up the smaller ones as monitors. He has poles.

I have a Yamaha MG10XU mixer, which doesn't have a monitor mix if you use the FX. He might have something fancier.

I believe it would be possible to daisy chain the two FOH speakers and run them from one side of the mixer. Then, use the other side for a monitor (or two, daisy chained). If I don't need FX (I like a little reverb) then I can use the FX level to control a monitor feed. Or so I think.

I have a Mackie SRM350 v1 and a pole for it.

The bassist has his amp, which apparently was loud enough. The drummer wasn't mic'ed and nobody complained.

One of the wives, a musician, was in the audience and approved the balance. Apparently, she could hear the piano better than I could. That was my only issue -- I could hear everything else adequately (could have been solved by angling one of his speakers, I suspect). The only comment from one of the owners (who was at the back of the space) was that we were a little loud. Her partner thought that our volume was fine.

The saxophonist is a very loud player.

My rig includes the mixer. I run a mic through it for announcements. Vocals, if we have a singer, which we sometimes do.

So, among us, we have enough gear, or close, to follow Never's suggestion -- which makes a lot of sense.

But, if I'm going in that direction, what about a line array system with enough power? Like the JBL PRX 1 with 7 inputs.
On the handful of occasions I used one (this JBL or a Bose L1 Compact), I loved the sound. And, if I understand it, it will handle the entire band and cover that much space pretty well. Also looks easier to set up.

My resistance is that the JBL weighs about 60lbs. That's total. I don't know what the heaviest piece weighs, or if it will fit in my trunk.

Another thought. Hire a sound man -- once -- and get a lesson.

[rpjazzguitar]

While I'm on the sound quest -- we have another problem gig coming up. A warehouse turned into a Wine Bar. We're there in late November, which means we're very likely to be indoors.

The bands I've heard there have suffered mightily from the cavernous interior. If the band is too loud, all I hear is a dull roar.

My band can play very quietly because of our history of playing small, quiet restaurants. That and turning down the reverb is all I've figured out for this warehouse gig.

The venue has a Yamaha Stagepas 300 on tall poles.

I've played there with other bands. On the bandstand, we can hear each other, but I'm guessing at the other end of the warehouse, it's noise.

Would a line array system make more sense there for any reason?

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

While I'm on the sound quest -- we have another problem gig coming up. A warehouse turned into a Wine Bar. We're there in late November, which means we're very likely to be indoors.

The bands I've heard there have suffered mightily from the cavernous interior. If the band is too loud, all I hear is a dull roar.

My band can play very quietly because of our history of playing small, quiet restaurants. That and turning down the reverb is all I've figured out for this warehouse gig.

The venue has a Yamaha Stagepas 300 on tall poles.

I've played there with other bands. On the bandstand, we can hear each other, but I'm guessing at the other end of the warehouse, it's noise.

Would a line array system make more sense there for any reason?

Adapt tempo and articulation to the room acoustics. Play slower as usual and play shorter notes.

[AllanAllen]

The professional solution to spread the sound as evenly as possible over a larger venue or an outside space would be to use delay lines. The signals of several pairs of speakers on the left and right of the place usually in even distances from the main public adress system are electronically delayed so the sound from them reaches the audience at a certain place at the same time as the sound from the main PA. This way you can also reduce the level of the main PA.

But that is way beyond the budget of what we are talking about here and is not something a band could do easily themselves before the gig.

Not really, the QSC K x.2 series speakers have signal delay built into the onboard settings. This is the speaker I use, but I haven't needed to use it yet.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

The bass is a separate animal, rp. Bass is essentially omnidirectional, so the location of the source is relatively unimportant except as regards boundary effects (ie SPL gain from proximity to multiple surfaces - at least 3 db at wall floor junctions and 6+ in corners). Put the bass amp at either end of the stage and everything below 100 to 125 Hz will sound the same at a specific distance. The harmonics above 125 or so will have directionality, so the tone of the bass will change with distance and position.

The wavelength is inversely proportional to the frequency. A 41.2 Hz tone (low E on a bass) has a wavelength of about 22 feet. At any distance less than the wavelength of a note, you will not hear the pure, unaltered sound of that note - it will be colored and attenuated by harmonics, room resonances, etc. It will be about as loud (or louder) at 22’ from the amp as it will one foot away. If the distance to a reflecting surface like a wall is a multiple of 1/4 of the wavelength, there will be resonance that will increase the SPL in the room. A room as long as half the wavelength will have an even stronger resonance. So the SPL of the note(s) can vary a lot with location in the sound field if it’s smaller in every dimension that the wavelength(s) of the note(s).

The thumping you hear from car audio subwoofers when you’re a block away is a good example of this phenomenon.

[rpjazzguitar]

I'm thinking about Never's recommendation.

Among the band members' gear collections there are a bunch of powered speakers but afaik only one mixer, my Yamaha MG10XU. This is a smaller mixer which I bought for a simple application -- guitar and voice for small venues.

This is a quintet gig. G, kb, bass, drumset, vocalist. Bass probably wouldn't go through the PA. Drums might benefit from two mics (kick and overhead?). That's three mics and guitar into the mic inputs and two channels for keys into the line inputs.

Suppose we use two speakers for FOH. Each side of the bandstand, in front, facing the audience. We run them out of one side of the mixer and daisy chain them. That is, I connect one FOH speaker to the L output. Then I connect the second FOH speaker to the first speaker. Signals are identical.

Then, using the R output, I do the same thing with the monitors. Put two speakers on the floor facing the musicians and run them daisy chained. I understand that this means that all the players get the same monitor mix. I can't do anything about that (with this mixer - exception below) but I can use the pan and volume controls to create one mix and then hope it's adequate.

The exception, with this mixer, is that I can get a monitor mix if I sacrifice the FX. There's a way to turn off FX and then use the FX level control to create a monitor mix. But, with vocals, I think the reverb is more important.

My other idea is to rent a line array system. I've been very impressed with the sound of several different line array systems.

[AllanAllen]

I would just drop the FX. The room has natural reverb.

[rpjazzguitar]

I would just drop the FX. The room has natural reverb.

If we're indoors (not yet clear, they also have a patio), we'll have to be careful about adding reverb. It's a very live room. I don't like a too-dry vocal and, OTOH, I don't like the sound collapsing into an echoey dull roar.

If we're outside we'll be more worried about getting cold.

[AllanAllen]

I was too vague. I would skip the FX to have a monitor in your specific situation.

[rpjazzguitar]

Thanks to everyone for helping out with this.

Here's where we ended up. Looks like we'll be outside.

The kb player has two pairs of powered speakers and a 12 channel mixer with two aux outputs. And, he's willing to bring all of it.

So, it's two mains, two monitors. Each monitor gets its own mix. The kb, guitar and two vocal mics will go into the mixer. Bass probably doesn't need to. Drums will be up to the drummer. Kick and overhead on the drums might be a good idea.

The mixer, though, doesn't have any FX. No reverb. So, the singer has a little unit that she uses for really small gigs. Her mic goes into that -- it has reverb -- and she runs the output into the kb player's mixer.

I'll go guitar>pedalboard>Little Jazz>Mixer. Having the LJ gives me 3 band EQ and reverb controls without leaving my stool. I can also use it as a monitor, if needed.

There's downside in that we won't have a chance to try this rig until the gig. Hopefully, I'll get a guitar sound that allows me to forget about the sound reinforcement and just focus on the music.

We'll ask the singer to check balance and volume by walking out into the audience and she'll be able to make adjustments on the mixer. When she starts singing, I'll do the same thing and check balance among the other four.

I think it will work.

Thanks again.

[rpjazzguitar]

A little more on this subject, maybe of some interest.

Last night I went to the venue for dinner and to hear that night's band.

They were outside. (We will be too, I expect). There is an elevated patio, but the band was on the ground (on an assembled stage -- wooden rectangles pushed together). There was a space of maybe 15-20 feet between the band and the nearest table. The patio is large and irregularly shaped. It's maybe 3 feet higher than the band's perch. Probably could seat 100 or more, but maybe only 40 directly in front of the band.

The band was a quartet, guitar, vibes, bass and drums. They played mid-tempo soul jazz (for want of a descriptor). We came for the third set and heard Cantaloupe Island, Song For My Father, St. Thomas and one I didn't recognize.

I really enjoyed what I heard. The guitarist was playing a Tele through some pedals and what looked like a small Supro amp. That was it. But it sounded huge where we were sitting. Great tone. A player after my own heart, he didn't play fast, but every note made sense.

The bassist played very simply, but in a deep pocket. Guitar and bass were clearly audible. Vibes were hard to hear (looked like he was going through a very small powered speaker). Drums were even quieter -- not mic'ed. They had a mic for announcements apparently going into the vibes' powered speaker. Announcements were audible but not really loud enough.

So, sound-reinforcement-wise, they were minimalists. Two small amps (bass amp was a smallish one) and a powered speaker. No other sound reinforcement. It wasn't perfect sound but it was plenty good enough to enjoy the music.

I've seen this before. Pro level bands with less gear than you might expect -- and it's fine.

Meanwhile, we're thinking of going in with four powered speakers, two FOH, two monitors. Vocals, guitar and keys into the system. Bass probably not. And, I'm thinking we should mic the drums at least with an overhead.

We will then have the potential to play way too loud or otherwise make trouble for ourselves.

So, the question is, how can we cut down on the gear? Should we? What would "effective minimalist" look like?

If we were playing without the singer, I'd suggest the kb player brings his usual two small powered speakers. I'd bring my Mackie SRM350 and use the Little Jazz as a monitor. Maybe run a line into the kb speakers (I'm not crazy about how they sound with my guitar). No mic on the drums. Every bassist for himself. We'd then be doing close to what the other band did.

But, with vocals, we have to get the speaker(s) for the audience out in front of the mic to avoid feedback, don't we? Seems like that's the point where the whole thing gets complicated, unless I'm missing something.

With nothing more than two powered speakers in front facing the audience, we might not hear ourselves well.

One powered speaker would be plenty loud enough, but might not have the dispersion we need. From the viewpoint of the band, the patio is very wide, extending well to the right. The patio is not deep, though, except way to the right. People choosing to sit there probably don't want to hear the band except in the background.

Any ideas for simplifying the rig would be appreciated.

[AllanAllen]

If you want my opinion. Your guitar rig is fundamentally over complicated. An amp running into a powered speaker should not be your basic rig.

I would suggest a louder amp and cut out your powered speaker. That’ll be your basic rig. If the room is big enough that the drums and horn needs reinforcement, then look into PA’s. Most rooms aren’t this big.

Vocalist should have their own speaker/personal PA. If I hired a front person I would expect them to have this. A guitarist needs an amp just like a singer needs a PA.

Thats just my opinion.