The Berklee $7,300,000 Zappa tribute band

[cosmic gumbo]

The Berklee $7,300,000 Zappa tribute band. When only these 29 students have completed four years at Berklee, they will have collectively paid $7,300,000 for their education. Enjoy the most expensive band that money can't buy.

Am I wrong to be disturbed that this is the representation of the jazz economy where students pay institutions vs this money going to support working musicians? That money would equate to 7,300 gigs that paid $1000 to working jazz groups.

So instead of only 29 Berklee students' expenses, how about all jazz students in US? That amount of money is so high that you might see how academia is a lucrative industry that soaks up most of the available money for the jazz economy. Is this justifiable, or just big business?

Believe me folks, the money is there, but it doesn't go to support the artists. Academia prefers they get the money, like any other business would. They are not blind to what they are doing, and of course, most grads won't agree to any of this, because of human nature....

[Alter]

So much bitterness against music education in this forum. What's the difference between this and any other field of education? Do you honestly believe that if someone today wants to pursue any music related profession there is a better way to do it other than studying music in the best college/University they can afford?

[christianm77]

The Berklee $7,300,000 Zappa tribute band. When only these 29 students have completed four years at Berklee, they will have collectively paid $7,3000,000 for their education. Enjoy the most expensive band that money can't buy.

Am I wrong to be disturbed that this is the representation of the jazz economy where students pay institutions vs this money going to support working musicians? That money would equate to 7,300 gigs that paid $1000 to working jazz groups.

So instead of only 29 Berklee students' expenses, how about all jazz students in US? That amount of money is so high that you might see how academia is a lucrative industry that soaks up most of the available money for the jazz economy. Is this justifiable, or just big business?

Believe me folks, the money is there, but it doesn't go to support the artists. Academia prefers they get the money, like any other business would. They are not blind to what they are doing, and of course, most grads won't agree to any of this, because of human nature....

I don’t think that’s how economics works.

[Litterick]

The ensemble includes only ten Americans (if you open the clip in YouTube, you can see a list of all those involved). Among the many nations represented are six Italians, four Venezuelans, three Peruvians, an Australian on bass and a British drummer. This is typical of elite academic institutions in the global economy, which compete for the best students worldwide and charge them top dollar for their education.

[Alter]

Most of them here will be on scholarships anyway..

[Jazzstdnt]

This is like complaining that business schools charge a lot, but not everybody comes out to be the next Silicon Valley billionaire. Whaaaa. Plus - we could also point out that a lot of those guys are dropouts. (Gates, Dell, etc.) See - who needs school!?!?!?! It's so dumb!!

And what about Med and Law school? They cost a bundle and not everyone turns out to be a top partner in a top surgical practice or a top partner in a scum sucking class action lawsuit firm. How unjust.

If we want college to be affordable then the government has to pull waaaaaay back on loans. The more money the federal government throws into the education economy, the more the colleges charge. Has it gotten out of hand? Yes.

So who's going to do something about it?

[Jazzstdnt]

Of course, no one has addressed the real problem here. They're playing Zappa.

[p1p]

Wow, not my cup of tea..

[Dennis D]

As long as we're talking ' tribute bands ', what do you think it costs to fund this parade ? Let's see, 300 members, all full boat scholarships, instruments, transportation, uniforms, etc etc

If Berklee's is $7.3 MM, this looks like, what, double that ??

[mr. beaumont]

High School Teacher here.

So I'm supposed to tell everyone "go to college."

I guess. But you gotta be smart. If there's something that your degree will allow you to do that you will not be able to do without it--by all means, go, and take it seriously, and my best to you. I knew I wanted to teach high school, so that required a degree and a teaching certificate. No other way to do it.

The problem with music school is the "jazz performance major." Let's face it kids, the best of the best never graduate Berklee...

So then you're left with this...what do you hope to do after? If it's perform jazz, well then what school are you going to? Are you creating a network for yourself so that when you do graduate, you know people you can play with? Are you going to school in a place with an actual jazz scene so that AS you are in school, local players can hear you?

In this case, you have to not look at the piece of paper really. You don't take your diploma to the local club and get a gig. So what are you getting in the process of earning that diploma?

And for the love of God, unless you like teaching, please don't just teach as a fallback. Please. So many failed players out there who are fulfilling the "those who couldn't, ended up teaching."

And most of 'em can't teach either.

[christianm77]

Of course, no one has addressed the real problem here. They're playing Zappa.

Well for the modern Berklee student Weather Report has insufficient statistical density.

[joe2758]

Well for the modern Berklee student Weather Report has insufficient statistical density.

wut

[cosmic gumbo]

Jazz performance is now a product of academia, and it is a total economic failure.

[cmajor9]

cosmic gumbo - You are a sharp guy. Do you see anything wrong with the number $7,3000,000 in the 2nd sentence of your OP?

[Litterick]

Most of them here will be on scholarships anyway..

Most will be paying full fees. That is how the college makes its money.

[Alter]

Smaller colleges yes, but Berklee gives a ton of scholarships, especially to foreign students. It is a PR thing, and an investment for them. When I was there, practically every decent foreign student had at least a part time scholarship. Most of the better players from the years I was there have done a lot music wise since. Lage Lund, Lionel Lueke, Kendrick Scott, Walter Smith, Peter Slavov, Mamiko Watanabe, Gus G, Warren Wolf, Marco Panascia, Jaleel Shaw, Mark Kelly, so many others I can't remember now. Pretty much the 5-10 best players in every instrument have records to their name and a strong carrier going. That's a big percentage if you consider that there weren't more than 3-4 hundred students doing performance studies, and most of them left the states afterwards. Almost everyone I knew that was serious about playing then still performs music for a living today, almost 20 years later.

[christianm77]

Well when my mate Joe was there he said it was full of Scots.

[Jazzstdnt]

Well when my mate Joe was there he said it was full of Scots.

translation for us Yankees please?

[Jazzstdnt]

Jazz performance is now a product of academia, and it is a total economic failure.

I don't know if it's total but yeah, it's pretty thin. Of note, Carla Bley was saying that unless one was Miles or Trane there were no gigs in Manhattan - in the mid 60s. The Beatles and all...

So maybe Miles was wise to head in the.... um... directions of rock and funk.

But back to your other point. If all jazz performance has now is academia, why kick academia in the nads? Following your line of reasoning, if it didn't have academia it wouldn't exist at all. Is that your preference?

[mr. beaumont]

translation for us Yankees please?

I think it translates to WASPs.

[Phil59]

I don't know if it's total but yeah, it's pretty thin. Of note, Carla Bley was saying that unless one was Miles or Trane there were no gigs in Manhattan - in the mid 60s. The Beatles and all...

So maybe Miles was wise to head in the.... um... directions of rock and funk.

But back to your other point. If all jazz performance has now is academia, why kick academia in the nads? Following your line of reasoning, if it didn't have academia it wouldn't exist at all. Is that your preference?

Of course, it's up to Cosmic Gumbo to speak for himself. But I would suggest that yes, the academic influence has contributed to the decline of jazz both in quality and popularity. Certainly not technical expertise. But I think one needs to be able to dance to the music, snap their fingers or tap their feet in enjoyment and appreciation. In other words, jazz must swing to be appreciated by more than a hard core. An academic approach generally is antithetical to this, in my view.

[Jazzstdnt]

Of course, it's up to Cosmic Gumbo to speak for himself. But I would suggest that yes, the academic influence has contributed to the decline of jazz both in quality and popularity. Certainly not technical expertise. But I think one needs to be able to dance to the music, snap their fingers or tap their feet in enjoyment and appreciation. In other words, jazz must swing to be appreciated by more than a hard core. An academic approach generally is antithetical to this, in my view.

OK. Fair enough.

But - I double dog dare you to support that, going back to the 40's and doing a walk forward.

And as you go, please remember Bebop, Elvis, Bob Dylan, The Beatles, Stones, and the entire 60's era hippie bands - then disco, rap, hip-hop.....

And then explain to me how Jerry Coker, David Baker, Dan Haerle, UNT, Berklee, Howard Roberts, Jamie Aebersold, etc, destroyed jazz. In other words, names that people would respond to with "huh?" "who?", "what?" "never heard of him", "seems very obscure", etc.

Go on please. Can't wait.

[christianm77]

There's a lot to unpack here....

So I think jazz musicians sometimes make the assumption that they are affected uniquely by the general decline in the popularity of live music. Possibly the last time they looked over the fence, rock musicians were raking in royalties and splurging money on huge tours... While this may still be true of the Rolling Stones, ask any young musician trying to get a foothold in the modern music industry and you are going to hear some similar stories.

Live music is not longer a big thing... It's all video games and youtube now. Even the popular musicians are the ones that are best at youtube, or writing music for video games...

And where do these musicians learn their craft these days? Well, at places like Berklee... The $7,300,000 Berklee Zappa covers band is not just an animal of the jazz world.

In fact in some ways jazz, with it's patina of respectability, may actually be better placed to weather the changes, like classical music...

Anyway, jazz is largely an umbrella term for non-classical instrumental music these days (as most good non-classical musicians study jazz to some degree, I suppose). For instance, Ben Monder can play his original harmonically complex, non-improvised, non swinging music that borrows as much, if not more, from modern classical as the jazz tradition and still get labelled as jazz. I think increasingly the term is divorced from generic expectations.

Anyway from the point of economics, supply of super talented musicians has probably never been higher, and demand has probably never been lower. But there is demand in the educational sector, so there you go.

The artform's problem is IMO that a lot of these talented musicians never have enough of a chance to play for normal people regularly, so lack that essential skill of communicating beyond their community.

Also, they are unlikely to be cool. Jazz used to be cool. When it lapses back into fashion it's usually because of some cool people, be it the Young Lions, or Thundercat or Snarky or whatever. Thundercat might not look like my Gen X idea of cool, but referencing Dragonball Z in your lyrics is now apparently, cool.

[Alter]

I would agree with that. Berklees guitar program is not so much about jazz, unless you choose to go towards that, but more about modern guitar and music. It's pretty diverse, and I really like the fact that they try to organize it so you learn the most necessary things, in the simplest way possible.

[christianm77]

I would agree with that. Berklees guitar program is not so much about jazz, unless you choose to go towards that, but more about modern guitar and music. It's pretty diverse, and I really like the fact that they try to organize it so you learn the most necessary things, in the simplest way possible.

Well I work with a guy who was at Berklee (only for a year) and he credits their teaching with making him the (killer) player he is today.

This surprised me because UK college grads are often very lukewarm about the quality of the teaching, perhaps singling a couple of classes out for praise.