Anything that speaks against stainless steel frets?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

You guys who can hear the difference must have big ears

[ArchieHollow]

Don't mean to vear off the beaten path. But I thought that, since we're on the subject of fret metals, do any of you have experience with bronze frets? My 1942 Gretsch New Yorker has its original bronze frets. The instrument was definitely not overplayed in its lifetime. I had fret leveling/polish job done in early 1990s and it plays beautifully with close action.

[Woody Sound]

My first experience with ss was on a Parker Fly. I really liked them. Then a Carvin, again really liking them. Smooth as silk. Now any time I am buying a guitar with that option, I'll get the ss version. I've not yet had a git refretted with them, so I don't know about issues there.

[Alter]

I also think there's a case to be made that "bedroom warriors" make mountains out of molehills when it comes to this stuff sometimes

I think it's the opposite. Playing at low volume at home, nothing really makes that much of a difference. But when you have to amplify everything to rehearsal volume and band environment, then gig volume and PA environment, even the smallest detail becomes noticeable, a great guitar vs a mediocre or a bad one, a great amp, the effects and pedals that really work for your music or don't, etc. With experience, you can kind of notice all that at low volume, but it's still a wild guess and you never know how a piece of gear really sounds unless you 've tried it loud, and with other instruments.

[jzucker]

I could hear it on my tele- it was just so subtle that it didn't matter. No EQ changes were required. Perhaps different guitars react differently to changed fret materials. The video I posted illustrates pretty well I think that the difference is (can be) negligible to the point of irrelevant. If you can't hear it blindfolded, then you can't hear it.

I also think there's a case to be made that "bedroom warriors" make mountains out of molehills when it comes to this stuff sometimes. I have been guilty myself- play alone, in a quiet environment, sitting right in front of the amp, you hear things you would never hear in normal jam/gig usage. In the "quiet/alone" situation, a 5% difference is made into a 20% difference ... it's a bit of an OCD thing. I just learned to ignore it because at some point you'll drive yourself crazy, and go thru many many guitars/amps/pedals, looking to alter that 5%.

not a bedroom warrior myself but I will say that any guitarist and musician probably spends time on a ratio of about 100:1 of practicing vs gigging so something should sound great in either situation. And if we want to go down that route, 99% of folks in the audience can't hear the difference between a $400 les paul copy and a gibson 175, ergo...

[ruger9]

99% of folks in the audience can't hear the difference between a $400 les paul copy and a gibson 175, ergo...

Yup. The perfect argument for stopping obsessing over gear and just PLAYING.

Not saying you can't explore and change gear through the years, but I do think many players, especially since the "age of internet", have gotten OCD with their gear, never being 100% happy with what they have, and thinking "if they could only get that last 5%, everything would be perfect." I'll let them in on a secret: you NEVER achieve "the last 5%", it's a moving target. Just enjoy what you have and PLAY.

I love, and have obsessed over, gear as much as anyone. The music is more important. Spend more time on the music than the gear.

[jzucker]

Yup. The perfect argument for stopping obsessing over gear and just PLAYING.

Not saying you can't explore and change gear through the years, but I do think many players, especially since the "age of internet", have gotten OCD with their gear, never being 100% happy with what they have, and thinking "if they could only get that last 5%, everything would be perfect." I'll let them in on a secret: you NEVER achieve "the last 5%", it's a moving target. Just enjoy what you have and PLAY.

I love, and have obsessed over, gear as much as anyone. The music is more important. Spend more time on the music than the gear.

I think you took my statement in a different light than what I intended. My point was not "don't worry about gear" but that you need to find something that inspires you when you're practicing and not to worry about the fact that - at the gig - you can't hear the difference between brass, nickel/silver and SS frets.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Not saying you can't explore and change gear through the years, but I do think many players, especially since the "age of internet", have gotten OCD with their gear, never being 100% happy with what they have, and thinking "if they could only get that last 5%, everything would be perfect." I'll let them in on a secret: you NEVER achieve "the last 5%", it's a moving target. Just enjoy what you have and PLAY.

Having been playing for 68 years, I (along with everyone else) have come full circle on this. After decades of “progress”, the gold standard is still the sounds we loved when we were skinny and the guitars and amps were all fat.

First we spent money chasing more power with lower distortion. Then we spent even more money adding it back. We spent $ trying SS amps, then paid even more for SS amps that were more “tubelike”. Champs, Princetons etc were student and practice amps for years. Now they’re gigged everywhere and expensive. $1k for a CS Champ, $3k for a CS PR? It didn’t have to be this way.

We laughed at guitars made in Asia, until they became so good we couldn’t ignore them. My ‘83 Squire Strat was better in every way than the American Strats of the day and half the cost. By then, Gibson Kalamazoo was on its way to being a dim memory and Fenders were being made all over the place. The great names were shifting to offshore production, and many gradually disappeared or shifted ownership (along with mission, vision, and values).

I think history proves that there is no “last 5%”. It’s just a marketing concept to keep us insecure enough to continue searching and buying. In reality, we were at 99% in 1960, and the last 1% is what accountants call immaterial. Normal variance encompasses a wider swath than that. Worse, the marginal cost of chasing ever smaller returns is huge and (at least to me) a fool’s errand.

The only major advances that have seriously changed playing for me are the availability of small, light, powerful amps that sound great, the widespread use of good sound reinforcement at larger venues, and good gig bags. I think most of us still love tones that were the norm in 1960 and happily play guitars that feel like they did in 1960. I can’t speak for all of you, but gearwise I’m at 99+% and have been there for decades. I just didn’t recognize it.

If I’d only put all the $ I put into gear into the bank instead and kept my 175, my first Tele, and my 15” Pro or B15N………

[Stringswinger]

A lot of wisdom exists in this thread. Here are some conclusions I have come to:

A) We do chase gear a bit too much in the days of the Internet where buying and selling is much easier and available. But so what? It can be fun, and so long as one is not being profligate to the point of causing harm to oneself (or one's family) it is all fine.

B) Inspiration is a necessary part of music making. If some new piece of gear inspires your playing, go for it. If the sound of your gear bothers you at home, get rid of it. While it might not make any difference on the bandstand, your lack of inspiration will.

C) SS frets are a godsend for some and a bad choice for others (I am in the latter group). Trying to convince the members of the other group you find yourself in (regarding these frets) is a true fools errand.

[nyc chaz]

Having been playing for 68 years, I (along with everyone else) have come full circle on this. After decades of “progress”, the gold standard is still the sounds we loved when we were skinny and the guitars and amps were all fat.

First we spent money chasing more power with lower distortion. Then we spent even more money adding it back. We spent $ trying SS amps, then paid even more for SS amps that were more “tubelike”. Champs, Princetons etc were student and practice amps for years. Now they’re gigged everywhere and expensive. $1k for a CS Champ, $3k for a CS PR? It didn’t have to be this way.

We laughed at guitars made in Asia, until they became so good we couldn’t ignore them. My ‘83 Squire Strat was better in every way than the American Strats of the day and half the cost. By then, Gibson Kalamazoo was on its way to being a dim memory and Fenders were being made all over the place. The great names were shifting to offshore production, and many gradually disappeared or shifted ownership (along with mission, vision, and values).

I think history proves that there is no “last 5%”. It’s just a marketing concept to keep us insecure enough to continue searching and buying. In reality, we were at 99% in 1960, and the last 1% is what accountants call immaterial. Normal variance encompasses a wider swath than that. Worse, the marginal cost of chasing ever smaller returns is huge and (at least to me) a fool’s errand.

The only major advances that have seriously changed playing for me are the availability of small, light, powerful amps that sound great, the widespread use of good sound reinforcement at larger venues, and good gig bags. I think most of us still love tones that were the norm in 1960 and happily play guitars that feel like they did in 1960. I can’t speak for all of you, but gearwise I’m at 99+% and have been there for decades. I just didn’t recognize it.

If I’d only put all the $ I put into gear into the bank instead and kept my 175, my first Tele, and my 15” Pro or B15N………

So true everything you said about gear and can be applied to other aspects of life as well.

[lammie200]

I don't think you can contemplate this topic without discussing what metal strings you prefer. I personally don't like SS strings for their sound. You might be able to say that fret metal versus string metal aren't comparable, but there is something to be said about the combination of the two and the effects.

As Stringswinger says, SS frets are good for some people, not so good for others.

[Bobby Timmons]

I don't polarize the gear issue as either 'stfu and play the pos' or incessantly tone chase throwing 10s of thousands at the last 5%. I simply ask myself, am I happy with my instrument or not?

If I'm not happy with my instrument, I will never be able to 'just practice more'. I would need to get something legitimate that doesn't have glaring shortcomings which habitually bother me. There's also the fun aspect of optimizing the instrument, which I'd do within reason.

If I am happy with the instrument, I'm perfectly fine to just play the thing and work on my playing rather than incessantly tone chase. My entire music instrument collection right now consists of a 2nd tier Yamaha digital piano, a UA interface, and a laptop.

[RJVB]

The only major advances that have seriously changed playing for me are the availability of small, light, powerful amps that sound great, the widespread use of good sound reinforcement at larger venues, and good gig bags.

There have probably been more major advances for people without the seemingly unlimited financial resources that appear to be the norm on this forum : better (if not much better) cheap instruments and better strings. If we're indeed using 1960 as the baseline that means that phosphor-bronze wound strings didn't exist (introduced in '76 IIRC), and choices for people not playing on steel strings where much more limited.

[Bobby Timmons]

You guys who can hear the difference must have big ears.

I called which one was which on the warmoth demo. Ss are slightly more strident. It's less of an eq thing over recording.

[ruger9]

I think you took my statement in a different light than what I intended. My point was not "don't worry about gear" but that you need to find something that inspires you when you're practicing and not to worry about the fact that - at the gig - you can't hear the difference between brass, nickel/silver and SS frets.

Well, I also agree with that. I think, most times, you can't "ignore" the "gear thing" until you've been through a bunch of it. It's like, in order to get to "simple", and "just play", you have to learn everything first. Similar to the famous music theory statement "learn everything, then forget it all and just play." I think that applies to gear too.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

There have probably been more major advances for people without the seemingly unlimited financial resources that appear to be the norm on this forum : better (if not much better) cheap instruments and better strings. If we're indeed using 1960 as the baseline that means that phosphor-bronze wound strings didn't exist (introduced in '76 IIRC), and choices for people not playing on steel strings where much more limited.

I don’t know your age bracket, so this may or may not be news to you. When I was starting out (I got my first guitar in 1955), there was good inexpensive stuff and it was made in the US by real craftspeople. Even my first guitar (a United Elitone made in New Jersey and costing $10) was decent. There were good giggable electrics and excellent flattops for $75 or less. Small inexpensive tube amps were everywhere. My first was a 5 Watt Kay that cost $35 new. A 1955 Champ was $50 new.

Kay, Harmony, Supro etc were players’ guitars and amps. Gibson, Guild and Fender were a step up in cost, but there was a world of good affordable instruments for us. Gibson’s “student” guitars and amps were excellent - the ES125 was one of them. IIRC, my first Gibson (a new LG-1 that replaced the UE) cost $90 new in 1957).

There were many fine string choices, although light gauges didn’t become readily available until the ‘60s (and 12-56 was considered light when strings started to get thinner). There were also flatwounds in the ‘50s. For blues, many used longneck banjo strings for E1 and B for easy bends.

You’re right that there are excellent entry level guitars & amps now at true bargain prices. But even in the 1950s, we had a lot of choice among giggable “economy” stuff.

[jazzgtrl4]

what about EVO frets, anyone tried theses? difference in sound between Nickel, SS and EVO?

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

what about EVO frets, anyone tried theses? difference in sound between Nickel, SS and EVO?

I think Jescar Gold is now out of production. IIRC, it’s a titanium alloy. They’re similar in feel to SS but a bit softer, and they’re easier to work with. I’ve only played a few guitars with them, and I thought they felt like well dressed NS. I heard no ping or other artifact. My luthier recommends them over SS.

[RJVB]

I don’t know your age bracket, so this may or may not be news to you. When I was starting out (I got my first guitar in 1955)

I'm clearly a generation younger, but a continent older

I must have gotten my 1st (kiddy) violin in '76 or so and bought my own first "good" violin in '90 or so for IIRC Hfl 1200 (550€ according to the official conversion rate). A lot of money for me at the time and back then "import" non-luthier-built instruments from the (far) east were still considered 2nd rate or less.

I did post on here about my mom's old "Troubadour" guitar (a round-hole archtop!) that must have been bought sometime during the very early 50s. They can't have been rich at the time so shortly after the war and with 3 daughters at or near job-learning age. A beech laminate with a horrible sunburst, a very chunky (and very warped) neck, a single transverse brace under the saddle (unglued from the bass side of the saddle to the side) and a saddle that was somehow shaped to the weird recurve of the top. Not exactly a tribute to proverbial German quality but it still managed to sound nice enough ... as an after-hours couch guitar. In its current state it wouldn't have been suitable as a learner instrument but it probably was once.

In short, yes, there have probably always been suitable beginner/learner instruments that were accessible for all but the poorest. But apparently you can get a decent, mass-produced beginner classical for about 100€ nowadays, off a rack or some internet shelf. I have no idea what that translates to in pre-60s money (here and even less "over there").

[Stringswinger]

I'm clearly a generation younger, but a continent older

I must have gotten my 1st (kiddy) violin in '76 or so and bought my own first "good" violin in '90 or so for IIRC Hfl 1200 (550€ according to the official conversion rate). A lot of money for me at the time and back then "import" non-luthier-built instruments from the (far) east were still considered 2nd rate or less.

I did post on here about my mom's old "Troubadour" guitar (a round-hole archtop!) that must have been bought sometime during the very early 50s. They can't have been rich at the time so shortly after the war and with 3 daughters at or near job-learning age. A beech laminate with a horrible sunburst, a very chunky (and very warped) neck, a single transverse brace under the saddle (unglued from the bass side of the saddle to the side) and a saddle that was somehow shaped to the weird recurve of the top. Not exactly a tribute to proverbial German quality but it still managed to sound nice enough ... as an after-hours couch guitar. In its current state it wouldn't have been suitable as a learner instrument but it probably was once.

In short, yes, there have probably always been suitable beginner/learner instruments that were accessible for all but the poorest. But apparently you can get a decent, mass-produced beginner classical for about 100€ nowadays, off a rack or some internet shelf. I have no idea what that translates to in pre-60s money (here and even less "over there").

I got my first guitar in 1968, so I am in between you and Nevershouldhavesoldit in age.

My mom paid $50 for a new Japanese made thin line hollow body from a pawn shop in Philadelphia. The owner of said pawn shop was a "friend" of my grandmother. The guitar had a price tag of $75 on it. It had a high action that could not be adjusted down and was very difficult to play. I suspect that it had a badly warped neck. It is amazing that I stayed with the instrument. And until I played some of the amazing Tokai lawsuit models in the early 80's, I had a very dim view of Japanese guitars. Today after owning three Japanese made Ibanez archtops, I now have a very high opinion of Japanese guitars.

My first guitar lessons were in suburban New York City at Frank Turso's White Plains Academy of music. One day I overheard Frank talking to my mom when she came to pick me up from a lesson. Frank was an authorized Guild dealer and offered to give my mom a healthy discount on Guild's cheapest guitar, the Economy M-20. That guitar had a list price of $135 at the time. Frank told her that he and the other teachers at the school thought that I had a lot of natural talent and that the guitar that I had was holding back my progress.
She bought the Guild for $90 out the door. It was a great guitar and easy to play. I sold the Guild in 1974 to fund my fist Gibson, a 1970 ES-175 (both of those guitars were great and I hope they are doing well wherever they are today). I traded the Japanese electric guitar in on a Japanese lawsuit guitar, an EL Degas SG copy in 1974 (it was an OK guitar, but not great) and I sold the EL Degas to help fund the aforementioned ES-175.

Clearly, today, one can find beginners guitars for way less money (adjusted for inflation) than back then. And with the Internet, both educational materials and instruments are more readily available. But back then, the popular music of the day was way better. Like I tell the kids of today, it is not that I am old, it is that your music really sucks.

Props to my mom and Frank Turso for putting that Guild in my hands. Had that not been done, my career as a professional musician might never have happened.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I got my first guitar in 1968, so I am in between you and Nevershouldhavesoldit in age.

Stuff got way out of hand in the interim. The ‘69 Gibson catalog no longer had prices, but I have part of a ‘70 dealers’ price list. The cheapest Les Paul was $425 in 1970.

Still and all, we guitarists are a spoiled lot. You can get a guitar good enough for gigs for $300 or less today, including hardware upgrades and a setup. For $1k, you can get a wonderful guitar that’ll be a better instrument than most of us could use to its full potential. A Yamaha student tenor saxophone lists for $3200.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I have played my tricone every day for 3-6 hours a day since I received it over four years ago..

Ummm - that's not a tricone. This is:

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Au contraire friend. Yours is a National Tricone. Mine is a Mule Tricone. Matt Eich builds his tricones like the original tricone designed by the John Dopyera. Same f holes and cover plate as a single cone/bisquit which he used for the later developed single cone. In my not so humble opinion they are the best sounding and playing tricones in the world. Not as loud as a National but a more detailed sound. They can sound like a great flat top or archtop as well as a resophonic guitar. Bonus I think the f hole and cover plate looks way better than the T bar and screened vents of a National.
Here is a pic inside of my Mule stainless steel tricone as it was being built and completed.

Like Wow, Dobie! I had no idea there was such a thing.

[RJVB]

Like Wow, Dobie! I had no idea there was such a thing.

Heh, I made the same mistake as you did. Except I decided to check for snakes under the grass before posting

Personally I do prefer the avant-gardiste look of the National tricone design (but would probably hate not being able to remove the hand rest). There's something to say for being able to tell biscuit from spider from tricone resonators by just looking at them...

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Heh, I made the same mistake as you did. Except I decided to check for snakes under the grass before posting

Personally I do prefer the avant-gardiste look of the National tricone design (but would probably hate not being able to remove the hand rest). There's something to say for being able to tell biscuit from spider from tricone resonators by just looking at them...

Mea culpa! But the hand rest / bridge guard is very useful. Tricones are more susceptible to damage from pressure on the bridge than unicones. The resonator mechanism is more fragile and the trestle is a lever resting on the cones - so any applied force and displacement of the saddle is both delivered at an angle to the anchor point(s) and increased by the distance between the application point and the affected cone(s). I’ve had this one for about 20 years and have never even noticed the rest / guard.