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Hi all, a returning member here from The Netherlands. I joined a few years ago to inquire about this old archtop my friend was contemplating have refretted. He ultimately bought at an Epi Joe Pass and is very happy with it. Members 'Ol Fret, Hammertone, Greentone and sgosnell kindly provided me with valuable info, surmised below. That thread is gone, not sure why. Anyway, my friend gifted me this Framus Rosita - at least I think that is what it is based on the Vintage Framus website: 5/58 Rosita There remains only a very small piece of the label inside the body.
This old archtop has been a wall hanger since my friend bought it in 1999. It has no truss rod - which surprised me. The frets are low and done for, they have been crudely leveled but not crowned. File marks all over the fretboard. Some frets aren't properly seated. The tuners are worn and slipping. The bridge is most likely ebonized pearwood (birnenholz) with a plastic insert. It has been sanded in such a way that it leans towards the tailpiece and the treble side is higher than the bass side). It has a zero fret with a matchstick fix. The wooden nut has two broken ends (it seems to be an integral, wood nut that is part of the fretboard--could be wrong though).
But it's light, sounds okay and resonates. It has parallel bracing, no sound post and is finished in black nitro which now has lovely checking. It has no kerfling but rather a strip of wood. There was a pickguard on it at some point in history as evidenced by two screw holes. The chrome pickguard with Schaller electrics is a period correct addition, I believe.
No cracks in the top, back and sides. No gaps between them, it's still in one piece. I had it strung up for a week and the neck seems to be stable. My biggest concern was that it needs a neck reset. I showed it to a local luthier who refretted my 1981 Les Paul Custom 4 years ago (and who als builds double basses) to get his opinion. He said the neck does not need to be reset. The bridge does need to be sanded so it sits lower.
This winter I'd like to try my hand at refretting the old thing (and perhaps even install a truss rod). Always wanted to that, this seems like a low-risk candidate. I'll also replace the tuners and bridge with something period correct. There are two pretty cool period 'sliding saddle bridge' designs by Hofner I'd like to try.
So I'd like to pick your collective brain. I was wondering if anyone knows if Framus guitars from this era (1950s) have a steel reinforcement in the neck. Also, I'm curious to know if anyone has experience with adding a truss rod to these old things. I'm not sure if it's possible because of how the end of the fretboard sits above the top plate.
Is there a risk the multi-piece laminate neck construction will delaminate when heat and moisture are introduced during fretboard removal? I included two photo that (I think) show the lacquer check lines following the strips of wood.
If installing a truss rod is not possible, perhaps I could install a carbon fiber neck rod? Or just use frets with wider tangs as to diminish the neck relief once it's under tension of the strings (compression fretting)?
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11-20-2021 10:31 AM
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If it were mine, I think I would just do the refret, remove the pickguard and clean it with non-abrasive cleaner, clean the pots if needed, and not much else. The nut doesn't need to be replaced, it's just keeping the strings from moving laterally on the zero fret, and there appears to be plenty of material left to do that. Routing the channel for a trussrod with the neck in place on the guitar is an iffy proposition, even assuming nothing else goes wrong when you try to remove the fretboard. Unless the neck is already badly bowed, there is no need for one. I don't know if there is a metal bar in the neck, but if there is it's going to be difficult to remove it without damage, and then extend the channel for a trussrod. I don't believe it's worth the effort unless you can't live with the neck relief as it is after the refret/level. But it's your guitar to do with as you choose; that's just what I would do if it were mine, but it's not.
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Thanks for your reply. You may be right. By simply sanding down the bridge post I now have it playing okay-ish up the 7th fret, any further up the neck and string height becomes too much (too much for me at least). I'll first try level sanding the fretboard and compression fretting between the 2nd and 8th fret.
It sounds better than I had expected. With a fresh set of 11s it is loud clear with a good base. The feather weight bridge has me reconsidering the sliding saddle bridge designs, which I expect will be much heavier.
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Many luthiers believe that the lighter the bridge, the better the sound transfer. It does require a very tight mating of the surfaces. Ken Parker hollows out his one-piece bridges to make them as light as possible. I have noticed that different bases give different tonal characteristics. Which is better is subjective.
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So I decided to install a truss rod after all. The neck has an upbow without string tension and I really really like having low action and intonation as good as possible. I concluded that only refretting it would be a waste of time and effort.
Removing the fretboard - nailed it!
Using a flat iron, a sharp knife and putty knives, the fretboard didn't come off in one piece. It came off in 20+ pieces. It is lightweight and very brittle. Not sure what sort of wood it is. There were several cracks down the length of the board (as you can see below). I did first remove the inlays to reuse them in a replacement fretboard. I think they're really cool.
To my surprise there was piece of aluminum installed (off centre). It has a u-channel shape and looks like something from the hardware store, not from the 1950's (when solid bars or hollow tubing was used). This plus the cracks in the board and the badly filled damaged seam between the board and the neck, suggests someone was here before me. On the other hand, the slot is obviously machine made and the aluminum profile fitted snugly, so perhaps it is original. What do you think?
Without string tension the neck had an upbow in it. There was a big high spot at the 'floating' end of the neck and a smaller one at the nut. I sanded it flat.
Now I need to fill the slot where the piece of aluminum was installed & make a new (on centre) slot for a double action Martin style truss rod (for a 12 fret flattop). I don't have a router so I'm going to use chisels.
Surprisingly the fretboard had a Gibson scale length and a 12" radius. I'm ordering a same scale length fretboard, pre-slotted and radiused (10") with a set of pre-cut and pre-radiused Jescar fret wire.
Ebony or rosewood - not sure yet. I'm open to suggestions.Last edited by 1981 LPC; 12-28-2021 at 05:11 AM.
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Most West German archtop guitars built between 1947 and now have the Gibson scale length. The notable exception is Hofner.
Originally Posted by 1981 LPC
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In that case, surprising to me. Originally Posted by Hammertone
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I appreciate your courage, love, determination, and effort devoted to restoring your guitar. I had to do something similar with a 1936 Calace', made in Naples, Italy. We removed the neck and fretboard, routed a channel, and used carbon fiber and epoxy resin to strengthen the neck. It worked, and, we managed to save the fretboard. Anyone else probably would have tossed the guitar in the kindling box. These old guitars require our love. I'm glad you and your Framus found each other!
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Thank you, I appreciate that. I like fixing up old things. There's a well known psychological mechanism (which name escapes me) that makes you place a greater value on things that you put time and effort in / that you made or restored with your own hands - instead of buying something. Originally Posted by skykomishone
Having said that, I liked the sound of this guitar when I first tried it years ago - even in its sorry state. Especially compared to new 500-700 euro archtop guitars with laminate tops. Those seem very over-constructed and have a dull, thuddy acoustic sound. I think I can get this one finished for under 200 euro - including tools. I think that's a good deal for an old archtop that plays well, even if it's no longer original and a budget model. A more upmarket archtop model (one from Hoyer for instance) would be a fun next project.
Can you show us a photo of your 1936 Calace archtop? I've never heard of that brand (had to google it). Something like this one?
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Made some more progress yesterday evening. I cleaned up the U-shaped slot with a chisel and filled it with a piece of 13x13mm wood.
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Yes, only It is a 1938, and a bit more ornate. Calace only made a small number of archtops. He made mandolins primarily, and was quite good at it. This guitar is a serious piece of art...here's a link to a previous post.. Originally Posted by 1981 LPC
Thank you, I appreciate that.......
Can you show us a photo of your 1936 Calace archtop? I've never heard of that brand (had to google it). Something like this one?
1938 Calace
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That's beautiful!
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The truss rod is in - tightly. Took a bit of doing. The new fretboard and fretwire arrived.
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Wow man that’s very impressive. Looks like ebony, which would be my choice.
I think my guitar tech removed fretboard with a dremel. He uses PU glue exclusively. I didn’t see what you did to the ends of the truss rod but I would go with making it adjustable even if it means changing from the original.
I have a Yamaki Folk deLuxe which needs re-bridging and I suspect it’ll have to be cut open, the bracing is ‘reinforced’ with white netting which is likely a bad repair too.
but like your beauty I doubt there is anything that can better the sound of quality aged wood!
Hats off to you
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Thanks Eck! Yes it's an ebony board with a nice streak in it (something I like). I'm going to a wood workshop to bring it to size because I'm not even going to try doing that with my basic DIY tools. They have tons of planes, sanders, rasps and chisels.
Yes, that truss rod hex-nut is accessible via the headstock. Not having a jig I had to freehand drill into to the headstock with a 6mm drill bit, towards the slot for the truss rod. Butt clenching. I was perfectly on center, 1mm too high. But as I had to enlarge the hole a bit (to be able to get at the hex-nut if the truss rod is under tension) that problem solved itself. I then reglued the plastic coverplate to the headstock and bound it with elastic band (taking inspiration from Gibson way of installing binding material).
I've never heard about a netting material being used to reinforce bracing. Do you have a picture?
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I used regular wood glue on the cover plate and it worked. It looks untouched - save for the new access hole I had to make. It would be cool to make a truss rod cover out of inlay or pickguard material that looks like the original inlays (which I will reuse in the new ebony board).
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I'm impressed every step of the way.
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Thank you!
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Going forward I think I should:
- size up the fretboard to the neck
- glue the fretboard to the neck
- install the four original inlays (easier to sand flush with the fretboard without frets)
- install the frets (however I think I should install the 6 frets highest up the board before gluing it to the neck. I'd rather not bang a hammer on this 'floating' part of the neck).
What do you think about this order of steps? I was first planning to do the inlays and frets before gluing the fretboard to the neck, but fearing the fretboard could possibly warp I decided against it.
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Well I ended up fretting the board before gluing it on the neck, because I noticed the board barely moved after the first 6 or 7 frets were installed. I left out two frets in order to use locating pins while gluing down the board. After gluing down the board I installed the old inlays, using a scalpel and a small chisel, filling in with ebony dust and super glue.
Next step is bevelling and levelling the frets but I think I'm going to let the guitar sit for a week first so it can do what it wants to do.
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I approve (like that matters.)
Dig this stuff & old guitars, thanks for sharing.
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Thanks! It's never going to be a great guitar but if I can get it to a state where it's comfortable and fun to play I'd be happy. The fun part in the process is to also see what can be done without spending a lot on luthier specific/quality tools. So far I've only bought a fret hammer, a 6mm chisel and two $6 files (from which I cut off the handle in order to use them as a fret file). I lucked out on the graphtec nut being the right height. Originally Posted by rabbit
Last edited by 1981 LPC; 01-13-2022 at 09:20 AM.
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I had to remove and reglue the fretboard...
I somehow managed to glue the neck into into a down bow, even while using a clamping caull, and could not get enough relief into the neck with the truss rod (well I could but it took way too much force). I think the weight of the glue clamps was the cause. Also the neck seems very stiff.
But I had the board off and cleaned up within the hour, without damage. I reglued it into a small upbow, so I would be sure to have relief. In order to do so I added a 3mm paint stick between the headstock and the wooden block after getting everything straight and tight.
It worked out well, I now have a dual truss rod that works properly, without needing the strength of a maternally enraged gorilla.
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Frets are levelled, crowned and polished. Fret ends were done first. I still need to clean the fretboard and polish the inlays as I can still see sanding scratches.
To level the frets I used an aluminum water level. I stuck masking tape on it and super glued 400 grit sand paper to the masking tape. Worked fine. There were two high frets and one low fret. I used a triangular file from the hardware store (sharp edges filed dull) to crown the frets and do the fret ends. Sand paper, wire wool and metal polish after that.
Next step is to fit the period correct Goldo bridge with sliding saddles.
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