Fret Sprout

[Bill Eisele]

Hi All,

Although I keep my classical guitar in its case at about 45% to 50% humidity and generally play in a humidified room during the colder months, it has developed fret sprout. I do have the StewMac fret end file to take care of the fret ends above the fretboard, but have read that a Swiss #4 rectangular profile file is needed to file down the ends protruding from the fretboard on the side. Although I am tempted to tape the sides to prevent marring of the wood with the #4 file, I understand the tape will prevent me from filing the fret ends flush with the wood. So, is it inevitable that I will have to deal with small scratches on the side that need to be polished out? Or is there something I'm missing? Would it be better to use an even finer toothed file to minimize the scratches?

Thanks,

Bill

[Clint 55]

No, you're not missing anything. You just have to do your best with not messing it up by taping things off and being careful. What you can do is use 220 sandpaper on a hard sanding block. This will cut at the fret, but won't leave as deep of scratches in the surrounding area as a file.

[ccroft]

As someone who understands wood more than luthiery, I'm tempted to say wait a couple of months. Around our shop we talk about the 'small' and 'big' seasons. Small season is just barely getting underway. It starts when the heat comes on. And wood takes a long time to fully acclimatize to humidity change. So smallest season when humidity is low and the heat's been on a while.

I had sprout. I waited until the fretboard was as dry, and therefor as small as it was going to get. Then I took it to my guy. Like late Feb early March.

[Bill Eisele]

No, you're not missing anything. You just have to do your best with not messing it up by taping things off and being careful. What you can do is use 220 sandpaper on a hard sanding block. This will cut at the fret, but won't leave as deep of scratches in the surrounding area as a file.

Thanks, Clint 55! I will tape off as you suggest and use the sandpaper with the block. I have all of that on hand. I might not get it down as much as doing it without tape, but better to doing it in a conservative manner.

[Bill Eisele]

As someone who understands wood more than luthiery, I'm tempted to say wait a couple of months. Around our shop we talk about the 'small' and 'big' seasons. Small season is just barely getting underway. It starts when the heat comes on. And wood takes a long time to fully acclimatize to humidity change. So smallest season when humidity is low and the heat's been on a while.

I had sprout. I waited until the fretboard was as dry, and therefor as small as it was going to get. Then I took it to my guy. Like late Feb early March.

I think that's excellent advice, ccroft, but not sure what I should do at this point. The guitar was acquired early in the year and has been humidified but the wood hasn't expanded back to where it was when I first got it. The guitar was made in the Pacific Northwest, USA, in 2016, then on to San Francisco, and finally arrived here in Santa Fe, NM, in the high desert, I think in February or March. I would say the average indoor humidity that time of year is around 20 to 35 percent. But it was stored in its case with humidification and played in a humidified room with the same humidity level of around 45 to 50%. I think it wasn't here more than a month or two when I noticed the fret sprout. I contacted the luthier who made the guitar and asked if I should increase the humidity in the case, but he didn't recommend doing so. We then went through our monsoon season in the summer where the humidity level is around 50 to 60 percent. And now back in the 20 to 30 percent range. Do you think I should hold off doing anything until next spring? What puzzles me is why the neck and fretboard shrunk even with diligent humidification. My only thought is that where it was made and played has much higher humidity levels than the 45 to 50% range it's now in. Thanks!

[wintermoon]

I'd wait, it could go back to normal if the board absorbs enough moisture.

[ccroft]

So you've been through a full cycle. Did the sprouting reduce in severity at all after your wet season, when the wood might've expanded a bit? Or has the sprouting stayed about the same as when you first noticed it?

If the problem has stayed the same for a year, then your instrument has reached equilibrium with your room. Now's as good a time as any.

If the sprouting is changing, then maybe your humidification isn't working like you think it is. The expansion and contraction of your 5 year old fretboard is a very accurate hygrometer, and tells you what's going on in the atmosphere better than anything else. If it changes, then the humidity has changed no matter what the dial thing says.

Wintermoon's right though. The fretboard might swell back. But it may shrink again next year, like one of mine used to do. Fix it when it's shrunk and you're done with it. You'll never feel it again.

[Jimmy blue note]

I'd wait, it could go back to normal if the board absorbs enough moisture.

Don't do that. Wait for the fingerboard to dry out as much as it will shrink and address the fret ends. There should never be a season where you put up with razor sharp frets (they WILL become more pronounced) while you wait for the summer. The luthier never intended for this to be and had they the ability, they would have filed them flush in anticipation of any shrinkage.
It's a little like saying the guitar developed a crack in the top due to inadequate humidifying, but don't worry, it'll swell back in the summer.
There's no harm done by optimizing the instrument at the time of maximum wood shrinkage; the guitar will play fine all year round.

By the way, I use the StewMac fret filing block. It bevels the frets and brings the frets flush. I then use the small triangle safe edge file to round the edges where the filing block has left an acute edge.

My humble opinion anyway. I've been doing this a long time and fret edges are inevitable for most guitars, especially with guitars traveling to players in different locations. This small effort is well worth it to bring it back to the state the luthier intended at the time of the build.

[RJVB]

What puzzles me is why the neck and fretboard shrunk even with diligent humidification. My only thought is that where it was made and played has much higher humidity levels than the 45 to 50% range it's now in. Thanks!

How well can you trust your humidifier? The documentation should give the error margin the thing works with. Remember that there's a "hydrostat" in there which probably has a margin of error just like any thermostat, and the hydro sensor has one too. Get a couple of additional sensors, or reliable, calibrated one (might be expensive; no idea) so you can get a better idea of what the actual relative humidity is by averaging the different readings.

[wintermoon]

Don't do that. Wait for the fingerboard to dry out as much as it will shrink and address the fret ends. There should never be a season where you put up with razor sharp frets (they WILL become more pronounced) while you wait for the summer. The luthier never intended for this to be and had they the ability, they would have filed them flush in anticipation of any shrinkage.
It's a little like saying the guitar developed a crack in the top due to inadequate humidifying, but don't worry, it'll swell back in the summer.
There's no harm done by optimizing the instrument at the time of maximum wood shrinkage; the guitar will play fine all year round.

By the way, I use the StewMac fret filing block. It bevels the frets and brings the frets flush. I then use the small triangle safe edge file to round the edges where the filing block has left an acute edge.

My humble opinion anyway. I've been doing this a long time and fret edges are inevitable for most guitars, especially with guitars traveling to players in different locations. This small effort is well worth it to bring it back to the state the luthier intended at the time of the build.

To be clear I wouldn't play a guitar w sharp fret ends, but I'd be more concerned as to why they got that way.

[Jimmy blue note]

To be clear I wouldn't play a guitar w sharp fret ends, but I'd be more concerned as to why they got that way.

The back room of my shop has fingerboards stacked, sometimes for decades. Where I am in New England it gets extreme both ways and still it's never a given when it comes to drying wood. A fingerboard is a thin piece of wood. There's a lot of environmental exposure and a lot of surface area to breathe. Frets don't breathe so even the slightest changes in the wood grains as the moisture leaves will cause some shrinkage at the least, and warpage at the other end of the spectrum.
The best we can do is plane it flat and set the frets securely at the point of making the neck, but that leaves a lot of potential for change as the years mature the wood and it settles into what it is without water. It's really like a sponge in that way. Organic material that changes with the presence of water.
When I worked on the floor of the Hoshino facility, we'd get guitars from all over Asia. We'd let them sit in the warehouse and after a while, we'd go through the process of acclimatizing and setting them up for domestic sale. I'd trim the fret ends (which were flush at the time of building) and they'd be perfectly smooth. But if that leveling took place in the summer, come winter, that guitar would need it again. The wood is still changing over the first years of its life. If I trimmed them during the winter, it'd have a better chance of being all set for maybe forever.

It depends a lot where the instrument was built. When I build a guitar in the winter here, and use an air dried fingerboard, and let it hang and acclimatize while the finish is curing over that maturing process, it's got a pretty good chance of staying stable if it's going to a more humid environment. Other way around, humid to arid conditions... there's problems in the making. Nature of wood and steel.

Oh, it's good to have a guitar set up from a good tech once you've had it a little while. The optimum geometry at the time of completion has likely changed. If you care.

[ccroft]

Wood is a difficult and un-trustworthy building material! I've had to deal with it full time for about 35 years. Metals and plastics are much more reliable :-) :-)

I often marvel at how well hollow body guitars hold up over time, given all the cross-grain joints, and dissimilar wood species and materials involved: ebony, maple, spruce, metals, sea shells, plastic, etc. A testament to fine luthiery!

[Jimmy blue note]

Wood is a difficult and un-trustworthy building material! I've had to deal with it full time for about 35 years. Metals and plastics are much more reliable :-) :-)

Want to know a secret? I LOVE synthetic fingerboards. Lucky for me I'm a luthier with my opinions based on practical considerations.
No stigmas of tradition in that area anyway ;-)

[jazzkritter]

Seconding RJVB on hydrostats. I dunno the correct term for the fancy gold gauge in an expensive case from a top US classical luthier, other than it was a POS).
Something about the readings just never seemed right, so
I went for a decent digital along with the humidity testing bags you can get online. Turns out the gauge was worthless, it never read the tests correctly and depending on it would have been a mistake. Found the Oasis one to be quite reliable. There are less expensive little guys on eBay that even include a calibration ability, which the Oasis doesn’t.
jk

[Bill Eisele]

Hi All,

Just got back to this thread that I started and lot's of good information to consider! I would say that the guitar is close to going through an entire set of seasonal conditions, but it really won't be complete until next February - March timeframe. As far as the accuracy of the hygrometers, I use SensorPush units in the case and in the room where I play. I check them when I first get them with the Boveda calibration packs at 32 and 75 percent humidity. I then make the necessary adjustments in the SensorPush app. I then recheck them on a regular basis. And, I use the 49% Boveda packs in the case. So, I'm relatively confident the humidity level in the case and room are what they indicate. And, thanks Jimmy Blue Note for the information about the tools you use to do the filing. And, synthetic fingerboards like Richlite are really becoming popular for many reasons, including not having to deal with fret sprout. I do think, though, that many luthiers, particularly those in the classical camp, are still traditionalists.

And, I wish there was a good tech I could trust with the guitar here. I've been amazed in a not so good way with some of the people who call themselves guitar techs. It's typically one of the music store employees who gets assigned the job without any real training. I remember buying a Cordoba GK Studio guitar from the local shop here in town and after playing it awhile I brought it back to the shop for the free setup. The shop employee set it down on the work bench and proceeded to shim the nut with a piece of card stock, which to me is a very temporary fix. He then handed it back to me and I noticed a series of deep grooves in the back of the guitar. Turns out there was a screw embedded in the carpet on top of the work bench. Sigh! Needless to say I didn't let him do anything else to the guitar. I then some time later took the guitar to a luthier nearby for a fret level. When it was returned to me, the frets were so low the guitar was unplayable. I sold it to someone for less than half what I paid new for it to someone who does refret work.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Want to know a secret? I LOVE synthetic fingerboards. Lucky for me I'm a luthier with my opinions based on practical considerations.
No stigmas of tradition in that area anyway ;-)

The 21st century is actually a pretty cool place to be. Many of our “dramatic breakthroughs” really are, and the only reason I miss a lot of the 20th century is that it seemed to be a lot easier and more fun to just be human (at least if you were lucky enough to avoid poverty, starvation, discrimination, physical or emotional disability etc) than it seems to be now.

Give me synthetics that I and the planet can love, class D, neo, solar and wind power, plant based food (no, I’m not vegetarian - there are just some really good vegan and vegetarian foods now), LEDs, microfiber cloths, light and warm winter clothing, artisanal whiskies, craft beers, etc etc - plus the love of my wife, family, and friends. For 2022, I wish everyone in the world a heaping measure of equanimity with what is, a dose of tolerance for what isn’t, and enough of each to let us all be better, happier people.

Let’s smooth our rough edges along with those of our frets. And if a synthetic board sounds, looks, wears, and feels great, it’s fine with me.

[AllanAllen]

The 21st century is actually a pretty cool place to be. Many of our “dramatic breakthroughs” really are, and the only reason I miss a lot of the 20th century is that it seemed to be a lot easier and more fun to just be human (at least if you were lucky enough to avoid poverty, starvation, discrimination, physical or emotional disability etc) than it seems to be now.

Give me synthetics that I and the planet can love, class D, neo, solar and wind power, plant based food (no, I’m not vegetarian - there are just some really good vegan and vegetarian foods now), LEDs, microfiber cloths, light and warm winter clothing, artisanal whiskies, craft beers, etc etc - plus the love of my wife, family, and friends. For 2022, I wish everyone in the world a heaping measure of equanimity with what is, a dose of tolerance for what isn’t, and enough of each to let us all be better, happier people.

Let’s smooth our rough edges along with those of our frets. And if a synthetic board sounds, looks, wears, and feels great, it’s fine with me.

You're in a really good mood.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

You're in a really good mood.

I’m almost always in a good mood. It’s a lot more fun than being a grinch

I’m a lucky guy! I had my trio’s jazz show last night, my blues band’s show tonight, and our regular Sunday blues brunch coming up. I’m relaxing with my wife right now before we eat her homemade chicken cacciatore, and we just took an hour walk on a sunny 50 degree day. I already cried for the world this morning over a few cappuccinos.

[Clint 55]

To be clear I wouldn't play a guitar w sharp fret ends, but I'd be more concerned as to why they got that way.

There's a large average temperature change here in Santa Fe. The summers are 90 and the winters are freezing so the wood contracts in the winter and the frets sprout.

[Clint 55]

Thanks, Clint 55! I will tape off as you suggest and use the sandpaper with the block. I have all of that on hand. I might not get it down as much as doing it without tape, but better to doing it in a conservative manner.

No prob! Fret work is a compromise. You have to get the frets right so it will play nicely, but it's always at some expense to the cosmetics. You just do your best to minimize marks. Taping things off and then being careful is the best you can do. But you can get the ends flush with minimal marks.

[Clint 55]

The shop employee set it down on the work bench and proceeded to shim the nut with a piece of card stock.

I would punch that foo. Shimming the nut with paper destroys the tone because it doesn't conduct. Was that at Candyman? Lol

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

There's a large average temperature change here in Santa Fe. The summers are 90 and the winters are freezing so the wood contracts in the winter and the frets sprout.

It’s not only the temperature - the low humidity shrinks the wood. It can get mighty dry in the desert in the summer.

When Gibson first opened the Bozeman facility, we were there visiting friends and went to see it. The dryness was so bad (and their efforts to combat it so weak) that they couldn’t keep the instruments they were making from having problems. I played brand new J200s and dreads that were really dehydrated. Some even had loose binding and palpable fret ends.

[Bill Eisele]

I would punch that foo. Shimming the nut with paper destroys the tone because it doesn't conduct. Was that at Candyman? Lol

I’m pleading the Fifth on that one! I really like the owners and staff there. Obviously not a jazz guitarist hangout but I try to support them by shopping locally to the extent possible. The person who gouged the back felt terrible and I could have pushed it and gotten some kind of compensation. But I just took it home and worked the gouges out with moist heat. Still didn’t look pristine but wasn’t as obvious.

[Clint 55]

I like Candyman too. I really liked my piano teacher before covid hit. My story is I had a 20 minute conversation with Rand about ordering a shop floor custom Seymour Duncan. It arrives and it's a stock pickup. I was like wtf Rand?!

[Bill Eisele]

I like Candyman too. I really liked my piano teacher before covid hit. My story is I had a 20 minute conversation with Rand about ordering a shop floor custom Seymour Duncan. It arrives and it's a stock pickup. I was like wtf Rand?!

As they say, “it” happens! I hope you finally got the pickup you wanted.