Two conductor wire or this pre-tinnes gavitt for archtop/hollowbody?

[Boze]

What kind of wire do you guys use installing pickups in archtops and where do you get it? I've only installed a few pickups and my first attempt at wiring an eighties Epiphone Emperor was not a homerun. The one pickup Zephyr I've done twice now and that worked out better.

I followed a Seymour Duncan wiring diagram using a three color pack of gavitt cloth 22awg wire from Amazon and used a little hose scrap from the old harness to keep the long runs bunched together.

The original harness had colored two conductor wire to ground each connection on the pot/switch. I just used the black gavitt to connect all the pots, switch and jack to the bridge ground wire in the guitar. The pickup was a Fralin Pure PAF two conductor with the metal shield as ground.

The ground job isn't as good as the original harness. Also, while the switch works, the bridge pickup tone effects the neck pickup a bit (even when the switch is set to neck only) so I've apparently messed up more than just the ground.

[sgosnell]

Cloth insulation is only good for making the wiring look old, it has no effect on the wire inside the cloth. It is somewhat effective at reducing wallet fatness, however.

When wiring a guitar harness, you need to avoid ground loops. These are easier to inadvertently add when using individual wires.

I have no idea what the problem with your wiring was, if any.

[Boze]

Cloth insulation is only good for making the wiring look old, it has no effect on the wire inside the cloth. It is somewhat effective at reducing wallet fatness, however.

When wiring a guitar harness, you need to avoid ground loops. These are easier to inadvertently add when using individual wires.

I have no idea what the problem with your wiring was, if any.

If not the gavitt cloth wire then what wire would work better?

Is the cloth an inferior insulator or are you saying it works fine and just isn't anything special compared to cheaper rolls of hookup wire?

I enjoyed the pushback and pre-tinned as I'm learning to solder but I'm down to use whatever is proper when I redo both guitars again. I'd like to try fifties wiring if I can can find a cap to reach across the two pots on these hollowbodies as I don't appreciate volume or tone knobs with standard wiring and would like to see if 50s is, in fact, my jam.

I notice the tone knob had the middle lug grounded in this diagram, which I don't recall doing on my non-fifties attempts:

'50s Wiring vs Modern Wiring...What's the deal? | Fralin Pickups

[sgosnell]

Cloth works, it just costs more. Use whatever you like. I don't like paying for tinning that I can do myself, but it's your money.

There are several ways to wire a guitar. They all work, more or less, with different advantages and disadvantages, mostly affecting the sound differently. It's a choice, and there is no right option for everyone. Do you want the tone to change when you change volume, or do you prefer it to stay the same? That's your choice, and the choice of wiring scheme affects that, along with other factors. But the material used for insulating the wires has no effect on tone. If you like the ability to just push back the insulation, and are willing to pay for that, it's up to you, and I have no quarrel with that. I just don't want you to expect something that doesn't exist.

If you want a cap to span a greater distance than the leads are able to, just splice some more wire into the circuit. An inch or three of wire works fine.

[Cunamara]

I usually use braided shielded wire which is essentially self-shielding when using two versus four conductor setups, although dealing with the ends is a learning curve (getting the insulated core wire out of the braided shield so it can be soldered while preventing shorts). It's the stuff Gibson used for years.

Pickups may present with 2 (which may be separate wires or a braided shielded wire), 3, 4 or even 5 wires to deal with (the odd wire is usually a bare ground wire).

If using single wires like cloth covered Gavitt wire, field dressing can be helpful in reducing the wires' tendency to be antennas for noise in longer runs (from the pickup to the controls and from the controls to the jack).

[Bobby Timmons]

You want to use shielded coaxial wire in hollow bodies because the wiring isn't inside a cavity that you can shield like with solid bodies. Hollow bodies come wired this way for a reason. Otherwise it can let more noise in.

[Boze]

You want to use shielded coaxial wire in hollow bodies because the wiring isn't inside a cavity that you can shield like with solid bodies. Hollow bodies come wired this way for a reason. Otherwise it can let more noise in.

Thanks for this pro tip. I'm in the US if there's any specific product or link you'd recommend. I've been struggling to buy the right stuff.

These are the ones I'm considering now after the helpful forum advice:

https://a.co/d/6jIFOir

https://a.co/d/5bdvtX5

[sgosnell]

IME any shielded two-conductor wire is fine, and easier to use than a single wire inside a braided shield. The braid is a PITA to solder, and you need a high output soldering iron to deal with it. The shield doesn't have to be connected into the circuit if there are enough conductors. Soldering shields to the cases of potentiometers will test your patience and your soldering skills.

[Bobby Timmons]

Thanks for this pro tip. I'm in the US if there's any specific product or link you'd recommend. I've been struggling to buy the right stuff.

These are the ones I'm considering now after the helpful forum advice:

https://a.co/d/6jIFOir

https://a.co/d/5bdvtX5

You're welcome. That looks good.

[Boze]

IME any shielded two-conductor wire is fine, and easier to use than a single wire inside a braided shield. The braid is a PITA to solder, and you need a high output soldering iron to deal with it. The shield doesn't have to be connected into the circuit if there are enough conductors. Soldering shields to the cases of potentiometers will test your patience and your soldering skills.

My limited experience jives with that. I just ordered the black 2 conductor shielded wire of my two Amazon links above.

Thanks again to everyone who chimed in. Third time's a charm with wiring these fancy humbuckers and at least I'll have the correct wire so any errors will be with schematics or soldering. I even splurged for a Weller soldering station

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

What kind of wire do you guys use installing pickups in archtops and where do you get it?…The original harness had colored two conductor wire… The ground job isn't as good as the original harness. Also, while the switch works, the bridge pickup tone effects the neck pickup a bit (even when the switch is set to neck only) so I've apparently messed up more than just the ground.

What’s confusing me about this is why you needed any wire. I’ve never bought a pickup that didn’t come with more than enough wire to install it using the existing pots & wiring if they’re OK, which is usually the case. Unless you’re restoring an old guitar or changing values, there’s no need to start from scratch.

Why did you choose to make a new harness? I hope you removed all of the original wires and replaced all wiring to the pots. If you left any connections in place, it would explain the problems you’re having. You also need to avoid overheating any components when soldering to them. Heat damage changes values and can affect the integrity of connections.

[Boze]

Why did you choose to make a new harness? I hope you removed all of the original wires and replaced all wiring to the pots. If you left any connections in place, it would explain the problems you’re having. You also need to avoid overheating any components when soldering to them. Heat damage changes values and can affect the integrity of connections.

The og pickups on my MIK Zephyr and Emperor were really bad and some folks here advocated for replacing the pots and jack. I wasn't able to use the new CTS pots for the Zephyr because the holes aren't quite big enough. I also wasn't able to use the new Switchcraft jack for the Emperor because it's not long enough to put a nut or washer on.

My first hollowbody pickup install was a SDSL on the Zephyr and I did as you suggested just connecting the pickup to the original harness. When I decided against the Seth and got a 57 Classic I was confused that the existing harness didn't match the wiring diagram so I redid it with just gavitt pushback wire and the results have been fine.

Got the Emperor this year and since the holes are the right size I replaced everything but the too-short jack. The new harness mostly works as it should but doesn't sound as grounded and has some other quirks so my plan is to redo it again with shielded two conductor wire.

I also want to try fifties wiring on all three guitars because I've never appreciated tone or even volume knobs and the benefits of fifties wiring sound like something I'd dig.

Sadly, the Eastman came with another Seth, the only humbucker I already know I don't care for. I got it NOS from my local shop and I'm considering having them install an underwound 57 while I limit my amateur soldering to the Korean Epiphones. Depends on how much they charge I guess.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Got the Emperor this year and since the holes are the right size I replaced everything but the too-short jack. The new harness mostly works as it should but doesn't sound as grounded.

It's not clear what you mean by "doesn't sound as grounded". If there's hum of some kind that goes away when you touch the strings, you may have failed to connect the string ground. If there's hum that doesn't go away when you touch the strings, you either have a ground loop or a bad solder joint at a ground point (most often on the back of a pot).

As has been pointed out, soldering to the back of a pot requires a bit of skill. You have to heat the back enough to melt solder when it touchs the metal surface, and it has to flow across the surface rather than blob or puddle there. And you can't just melt solder against the tip and drip it onto the joint you're trying to secure. It has to run freely onto both the wire(s) and the back of the pot. If the joint is not physically sound and electrically conductive, it will have resistance across it. So you need a powerful enough iron to deliver adequate heat quickly, and the tip has to be big enough to transfer that heat to the pot but no larger. You need to work quickly, because you can't leave it in contact with the pot too long or the heat can damage the resistive element inside.

Beyond that, you'll have to describe the symptoms before anyone can offer potentially helpful suggestions.

[Boze]

It's not clear what you mean by "doesn't sound as grounded". If there's hum of some kind that goes away when you touch the strings, you may have failed to connect the string ground. If there's hum that doesn't go away when you touch the strings, you either have a ground loop or a bad solder joint at a ground point (most often on the back of a pot).

As has been pointed out, soldering to the back of a pot requires a bit of skill. You have to heat the back enough to melt solder when it touchs the metal surface, and it has to flow across the surface rather than blob or puddle there. And you can't just melt solder against the tip and drip it onto the joint you're trying to secure. It has to run freely onto both the wire(s) and the back of the pot. If the joint is not physically sound and electrically conductive, it will have resistance across it. So you need a powerful enough iron to deliver adequate heat quickly, and the tip has to be big enough to transfer that heat to the pot but no larger. You need to work quickly, because you can't leave it in contact with the pot too long or the heat can damage the resistive element inside.

Beyond that, you'll have to describe the symptoms before anyone can offer potentially helpful suggestions.

I got the help I was looking for and the shielded two conductor wire is in the mail.

Thanks for the extra tips on soldering too; even with the right stuff it still helps to have a clue. The Emperor having two pickups is probably what's exposing my beginner soldering. I did connect the harness to the guitar's ground wire and will make sure to do it again

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Thanks for the extra tips on soldering too; even with the right stuff it still helps to have a clue.

Here's another tip - you can't disturb a solder joint at all while it's cooling. If there's any motion (no matter how tiny) between the parts you're soldering before the solder has cooled enough to be fully solidified, you'll crystallize the solder. This makes the joint mechanically unstable and electrically resistive. A solder joint should look clean, smooth, and shiny. If it's hazy it's not a good joint and should be redone. This is especially problematic when you can't make a solid mechanical joint first, which is exactly what you have when you solder a wire to the back of a pot.

So you need to position and secure the pot and wire(s) together firmly so they're stable. Do not rely on pressure from the soldering iron or the solder itself to hold the wire(s) against the pot. There are soldering clamp systems sold for this purpose with names like "Helping Hands". They have alligator clips and assorted clamps on flexible shafts, so you can position everything the way you want it and hold it in place both while soldering and until it's cool and solid.

Also, make sure you don't turn the iron off or down before you remove it from the joint. If you're using a "gun" with a trigger, the tendency is to release the trigger when the solder has flowed. Hold it firmly until it's well clear of the joint. If it's not still hot enough to melt solder when you lift it off, you'll disturb the joint. The telltale sign of this is seeing even a slight peak where the iron was last touching the tip. The solder will be sticking to the tip if it's not quite hot enough to let the solder flow off as it lifts.

[Boze]

Here's another tip - you can't disturb a solder joint at all while it's cooling. If there's any motion (no matter how tiny) between the parts you're soldering before the solder has cooled enough to be fully solidified, you'll crystallize the solder. This makes the joint mechanically unstable and electrically resistive. A solder joint should look clean, smooth, and shiny. If it's hazy it's not a good joint and should be redone. This is especially problematic when you can't make a solid mechanical joint first, which is exactly what you have when you solder a wire to the back of a pot.

So you need to position and secure the pot and wire(s) together firmly so they're stable. Do not rely on pressure from the soldering iron or the solder itself to hold the wire(s) against the pot. There are soldering clamp systems sold for this purpose with names like "Helping Hands". They have alligator clips and assorted clamps on flexible shafts, so you can position everything the way you want it and hold it in place both while soldering and until it's cool and solid.

Also, make sure you don't turn the iron off or down before you remove it from the joint. If you're using a "gun" with a trigger, the tendency is to release the trigger when the solder has flowed. If it's no still hot enough to melt solder when you lift it off, you'll disturb the joint. The telltale sign of this is seeing even a slight peak where the iron was last touching the tip. The solder will be sticking to the tip if it's not quite hot enough to let the solder flow off as it lifts.

Thanks for this extra info and the details to watch for. I did get a helping hands-type thing with bendy arms and alligator clips.