When Sunny Gets Blue - Jazz Ballads by Jeff Arnold - Tune #3

[Liarspoker]

The new tune for this fortnight is When Sunny Gets Blue as selected by Mick-7 and decided by the roll of a dice.

This is the book that we are working from. There is a free PDF of the book available online which you can work from while you wait for the book to arrive. Or you can buy the Kindle book.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jazz-Ballad...s%2C145&sr=8-1

It's a new tune for me so there'll be lots of listening to the tune.
Here is Nat King Cole singing it.

The aim of this group is to learn Jeff's version verbatim, record you playing the arrangement then if you want you can mess with the tune and post an arrangement of that. First and foremost though is to learn Jeff's arrangement.

It's a good idea to keep playing Here's That Rainy Day and Time After Time so that you can keep them under your fingers.

Have fun!!

[alpop]

I've done a walk-through of this arrangement.

I will have to alter a few of the 5 note chords.

I'm 67 years old and the grips on beat 4 of bar six, and beat 1 of the second ending will cause me some discomfort and I fear injury if I persist with repetitions. I'm thinking of leaving out the 3rds on those two chords.

The jury is out for me on whether I can grab beat 4 of the first ending. I might just end that line with a dotted quarter note on the previous chord.

Otherwise I should be able to play the rest as written.

[Mick-7]

I would make changes like these (below) with his chord voicings. Short of chord substitutions (I replaced his Abm7 in bar 6th with a D7alt), eliminating a note or two won't affect anything other than his bass line, and there are many things you can do with it.



Actually, I'd change the chords on beats 3 & 4 of bar 7 to:

x-x-5-6-6-8 ->> x-x-6-7-8-6
-> x-x-5-6-6-5 - etc.

Re: the 2nd ending, no need to double the 3rd in the Em11, you could play:

x-7-x-7-8-5 (Em11) ->> x-7-x-6-8-5 (A7)
Or Altered:
x-7-8-7-10 (Em11b5) ->> x-0-5-6-6-5 (A7#5)

And I would play many of his chords in different positions than he does so I can use open string and symmetrical chord voicings, like for example the final chords in the Coda:

x-x-8-9-9-11 ->> x-x-5-6-6-8 ->> x-x-1-2-2-4 ->> 1-0-2-2-3-3

[Chris_S]

Hey guys, I hadn't been on the site in a while and I just saw this thread. I have this book and would love to join in. I'll get started on this tune this evening!

I have over a dozen Jeff Arnold tunes memorized, several are Christmas tunes, but only one from this book I think. Some of his tunes I can learn in a day or two and some a week or two. But it often takes many weeks before I can play a tune as fluidly as I would like, and some still aren't there. I'm a novice at solo jazz guitar but have had fun exploring it lately.

BTW, I just created a new profile because my old profile name was so stupid. Some of you may know me from previous threads as "Dio666". I created that profile over a decade ago when I was mostly a classic rock player and was really into Ronnie James Dio from his work with Ritchie Blackmore and Ozzie. These days I mostly listen to Jazz, 90's rock from my youth, and mellow pop music, (I'm not getting any younger).

-Chris

[lawson-stone]

I would make changes like these (below) with his chord voicings. Short of chord substitutions (I replaced his Abm7 in bar 6th with a D7alt), eliminating a note or two won't affect anything other than his bass line, and there are many things you can do with it.



Actually, I'd change the chords on beats 3 & 4 of bar 7 to:

x-x-5-6-6-8 ->> x-x-6-7-8-6
-> x-x-5-6-6-5 - etc.

Re: the 2nd ending, no need to double the 3rd in the Em11, you could play:

x-7-x-7-8-5 (Em11) ->> x-7-x-6-8-5 (A7)
Or Altered:
x-7-8-7-10 (Em11b5) ->> x-0-5-6-6-5 (A7#5)

And I would play many of his chords in different positions than he does so I can use open string and symmetrical chord voicings, like for example the final chords in the Coda:

x-x-8-9-9-11 ->> x-x-5-6-6-8 ->> x-x-1-2-2-4 ->> 1-0-2-2-3-3

Is there some reason why you can't just play the danged arrangement? Even when the OP has asked us to focus on learning the arrangement as it is written as a starting point, you just thunder on with your revisions. They might be good, but frankly I'd like to see you just play the thing as written if you can. As it is, you are actually undermining those of us here who just want to start off by learning the arrangement as it is published. If that's too simple for you, maybe you should start a separate thread or group.

[Liarspoker]

Mick-7 I have to agree with Lawson.

This is a Study Group for Jeff's arrangements of which you have not played one as written.

I'm sure that everyone that played TAT practised the tag chords umpteenth times.

I agree that by not playing the arrangements as written and just posting revisions does undermine the thread.

Going forward it would be best if you post yourself playing the arrangement that we are studying that fortnight THEN post your revisions (and perhaps play Jeff's arrangement with your changes).

So first and foremost play the arrangements as written then you can write and change what you want.

[alpop]

Hey guys, I hadn't been on the site in a while and I just saw this thread. I have this book and would love to join in. I'll get started on this tune this evening!

I have over a dozen Jeff Arnold tunes memorized, several are Christmas tunes, but only one from this book I think. Some of his tunes I can learn in a day or two and some a week or two. But it often takes many weeks before I can play a tune as fluidly as I would like, and some still aren't there. I'm a novice at solo jazz guitar but have had fun exploring it lately.

BTW, I just created a new profile because my old profile name was so stupid. Some of you may know me from previous threads as "Dio666". I created that profile over a decade ago when I was mostly a classic rock player and was really into Ronnie James Dio from his work with Ritchie Blackmore and Ozzie. These days I mostly listen to Jazz, 90's rock from my youth, and mellow pop music, (I'm not getting any younger).

-Chris

Glad to have another player join in!

As you said learning them is relatively easy. The work is in getting them presentable as a piece of music that listeners can enjoy.

[callouscallus]

One of the reasons I chose Jeff Arnolds books (before this group) is because his books are some of the better ones with arrangements that both sound good and are at least somewhat like what I see/hear the pro players actually playing. There are a lot of ways to play chord melody and Pasquele Grasso will not play like Joe Pass who will not play like Wes Montgomery who will not play like Kenny Burrell etc. Each note is a choice which leads to further choices down the line.

These arrangements present a starting framework, one way in which we can conceptualize the tune. Once we know the arrangement making conscious choices to alter are fine. If you don't want to learn the arrangement because the arranger is making choices you don't like than just find other source material. There's A LOT out there. For instance I've learned a couple Chris Whiteman arrangements because they sound great and I love his tone/taste/arrangement skills. I just learn his tunes right from the video because that's not too hard for me at this point. My point is, I wouldn't learn a Chris Whiteman tune if I didn't want to or didn't like his approach.

If a player took an arrangement and made improv modifications in the moment and presented it here I think that would be cool too. That's honestly how I use these currently. I learn them and then extemporize on them, adlib a second chorus and then restate the melody but using some alternate timing to make it sound different than the first. It makes it fun for me. Also playing against a cool backing swing brush "metronome" ads to the fun. If it isn't fun it isn't worth doing and you should just put it down.

Put for the purposes of this group and the time I have to record I just learning the arrangement.

[Mick-7]

Mick-7 I have to agree with Lawson.

This is a Study Group for Jeff's arrangements of which you have not played one as written.

I'm sure that everyone that played TAT practised the tag chords umpteenth times.

I agree that by not playing the arrangements as written and just posting revisions does undermine the thread.

Going forward it would be best if you post yourself playing the arrangement that we are studying that fortnight THEN post your revisions (and perhaps play Jeff's arrangement with your changes).

So first and foremost play the arrangements as written then you can write and change what you want.

First off, I do play the pieces a couple of times as written before I consider changing anything (and I explain what I've changed and why), and secondly, the alternate sparser voicings I suggested were in response to Alpop's comment, I quote: "the grips on beat 4 of bar six, and beat 1 of the second ending will cause me some discomfort and I fear injury if I persist with repetitions. I'm thinking of leaving out the 3rds on those two chords."

Just think of my suggestions as me thinking out loud about the arrangements, ignore them if you don't find them useful. But when Arnold does things like going from a 3 note voicing to a 6 string bar chord, as he does in bar 6 of this arrangement, it's hard for me not to comment on it because I think it doesn't sound good and is plain silly.

[Liarspoker]

First off, I do play the pieces a couple of times as written

We'd love to hear them.

[Mick-7]

By the way, the original lead sheet has a simple 2 bar pick-up, and he ends the song with the same two chords ( C7#5#9 -> F 6/9 ).



On the guitar, the last two chords could be:

x-3-2-3-4-4 -> 1-x-2-2-3-3

[Irishmuso]

I would make changes like these (below) with his chord voicings.

Looking forward to trying these.

[Liarspoker]

Well, there's both good news and bad ( but also good news).

The book arrived today and I find it much easier to look at then the pdf on my phone. In either case I try to memorise the tune asap.

The bad ( but also good news ) is that I could possibly have a few solo guitar gigs next week. If I do then that's where I'll have to focus though When Sunny is probably the easiest tune that we've done so far so I should get something up anyway.

alpop, at 67 years of age you can do what you want

Chris, welcome! Looking forward to your contributions.

callouscallus, you are definitely right. These pieces are 'etude' pieces. Play them as written then go your own way with your own voice.

Btw I too transcribed a few Whiteman tunes.

Playing the Arnold tunes and transcribing other solo guitar tunes is great practise imo. We'll get there (wherever that is!!).

[Mick-7]

Paul Desmond with Ed Bickert on guitar, uptempo version:

Barry Greene's take on it:

[Mick-7]

Barry Greene plays some cool stuff in that video, e.g., he plays a contrary motion phrase in the second to last bar of the bridge that's similar to this:

Lyrics: Some how -> she's -> not -> the -> same.

x-0-3-2-1-0 (Fmaj.7) -> x-5-3-4-3-x (G7) -> x-4-3-4-5-x (Db7#9) -> x-3-6-6-6-x (Db/C) -> 3-x-3-3-3-3 (Gm7)


And I recognize this trick phrase he played, used to play it when I was younger but don't anymore, the stretches are too hard on your joints.

x-x-10-6-6-8 -> x-x-8-6-6-6 -> x-x-7-6-6-x -> x-x-6-6-x-x -> x-x-5-6-6-8

[Mick-7]

Does anyone else here object to Arnold's shift in bar 1 from Gm7 (3rd fret) to C7 (bar 1) with the C bass note?

To me, the awkwardness of playing that C bass note is not worth it, requires you to reverse your hand position. I am inclined to want to play the passage something like this instead (below). I don't want to play his chord only because it's awkward but because I want my playing approach to be consistent and completely reversing my hand position like that (and back again to play the next Bbm7) is inimical to fluent technique. Position changes like this bug me.

x-x-3-3-1-x (C7) -> x-x-5-5-6-x (passing chord) -> x-(8)-6-6-6-8 (Bbm7) ->> Eb7, etc.

This would change the bass-line from his C-G-Bb-Eb to E-G-Ab-(F)-Eb, which is fine with me.

[supersoul]

I gave it a shot. Tried to stay as close to the arrangement as I could while also trying to give it a flow.

[Mick-7]

"Tried to stay as close to the arrangement as I could while also trying to give it a flow."

Which is not easy. That was good. Did you change anything? I haven't gone through the arrangement enough to be able to tell.

[Bobby Timmons]

^ I am going to come get you if you don't stop quoting like that. Why do you do that?

[starjasmine]

Does anyone else here object to Arnold's shift in bar 1 from Gm7 (3rd fret) to C7 (bar 1) with the C bass note?

Yes! The sound is vanilla and the fingering is awkward. Mostly because I rarely use that grip. After playing it a few times, it was pretty easy, but... it still sounds plain to my ear. I did my own arrangement of this tune a couple years back and substituted G-11 there, fingered as 3x331x. To add a little movement and harmonic interest, you can follow that with Gb7#11 fingered as 2x231x.

Another nice alternative in bar 1 is subbing A-7 for C7: 5x55xx. Following that with Ab7 as 4x45xx flows nicely.

[callouscallus]

Yes! The sound is vanilla and the fingering is awkward. Mostly because I rarely use that grip. After playing it a few times, it was pretty easy, but... I did my own arrangement of this tune a couple years back and substituted G-11 there, fingered as 3x331x. To add a little movement and harmonic interest, you can follow that with F#7#11 fingered as 2x231x.

Another nice alternative in bar 1 is subbing A-7 for C7: 5x55xx. Following that with Ab7 as 4x45xx flows nicely.

I can't tell if you are being serious or not. C7 chord is vanilla? You rarely ever play that "grip"? It's a C7 chord. I'm feeling I might be in the wrong place here on this forum. The chords you suggest are fine and of course we all play those as well, and yes they fit. So does the authors intent.
The first bar of this tune plays fine. It's not hard to play and sounds fine, and yes there are many other ways to play it.

[Mick-7]

I can't tell if you are being serious or not. C7 chord is vanilla? You rarely ever play that "grip"? It's a C7 chord. I'm feeling I might be in the wrong place here on this forum. The chords you suggest are fine and of course we all play those as well, and yes they fit. So does the authors intent.
The first bar of this tune plays fine. It's not hard to play and sounds fine, and yes there are many other ways to play it.

I like the dominant C7 sound there, I just don't want to flip my hand position around and back like that. As I said earlier, my goal is to be able to improvise chord melodies and that demands a consistent playing technique.

I noticed that Barry Green plays an Am7 chord there:
3-x--3-3-3-3 (Gm7) -> 5-x-5-5-x-x (Am7) -> Bbm7

Oh, I see that starjasmine suggested the same chord, but the next chord is Bbm7 so I wouldn't add an Ab7 there.

This sounds good after the Gm7: x-0-2-0-1-x (Am7)

[starjasmine]

I can't tell if you are being serious or not. C7 chord is vanilla? You rarely ever play that "grip"? It's a C7 chord. I'm feeling I might be in the wrong place here on this forum. The chords you suggest are fine and of course we all play those as well, and yes they fit. So does the authors intent.
The first bar of this tune plays fine. It's not hard to play and sounds fine, and yes there are many other ways to play it.

Yes, I'm completely serious. I simply agreed with Mick that there are better choices for this harmony and that I found the C7 voicing in the first bar to be awkward. If you don't agree, OK by me.

As someone who has played jazz for decades I more often omit the root than double it. So, nope, I have rarely had occasion to use that voicing. A dominant with no alterations or tension tones is vanilla. If it's exotic for you, fine. You don't have to agree with that, either.

I've mostly stayed out of the Arnold threads because when I've read through his arrangements of this tune and Rainy Day, they didn't do much for me. Fairly often, he chooses big, full barre chords that add physical difficulty without adding musical value.

Example: The C7 and Bb7 on beats 3 and 4 of bar 7. Much nicer, and easier to play, as C13 (xx89108) and Bb13 (sim.) without the roots, or as Em7b5 (x89899) and Dm7b5 (sim). Or if you want to avoid the parallelism, sub Db13 (9x9866) for Bb7.

Now, I am not here to "undermine" this thread, and if you want to ignore my suggestions, that's fine. And I am not trying to make anyone feel that they are "in the wrong place." I'm really not sure what you mean by that. My comment was not personal or meant to make anyone uncomfortable.

Best,

SJ

[Mick-7]

Fairly often, he chooses big, full barre chords that add physical difficulty without adding musical value.

Yes, what's with the big folk guitar chords? They're o.k. for Bob Dylan songs but not standards.