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I am attempting to learn Jimmy Wyble's Etude Seven. The technical demands are not huge, but I am getting a little hung up on his idiosyncratic RH fingering, which is different than what I have learned over the years (mostly books, but there were a few periods of lessons, including classical). Specifically, Wyble emphasized thumb and index alternation (p-i), in many of the places where my intuition is either just thumb (p-p), or index -middle (i-m) alternation. I can understand the advantage of p-i on his busy bass lines (though I think you could get away with just thumb), but Wyble indicates p-i as the default across the strings. Not only is this counter-intuitive to me in some cases, but I have trouble getting a good sound plucking the lighter/higher strings with my thumb flesh and the corner of my nail.
So my question is this: Will learning this and subsequent Wyble etudes using his RH fingering make me a better guitarist? Is this technique superior for CM in general, or will it just confuse and frustrate me?
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07-20-2024 06:32 PM
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P-I in the right hand is a valuable technique so worth developing. You might try it with a thumbpick. You might also try P-M instead or in alternation.
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I can't speak for the études in question but learning a technique that feels counterintuitive but is advocated by others is something that definitely can't hurt. It may not make you a better guitarist, but a better prepared or more versatile one.
"pipi" sounds like a Travis-picking inspired approach, and adding that to your RH repertoire is always a good idea IMHO.
Personally I often use P-I as an alternative to alternating the fingers in fast passages, trying to make the difference in sound no bigger than the difference between up and down strokes (I think I read Rob Mackillop does this too). Of course I play with flesh only, using my nails just as support for my fingertips.
My suggestion would be to practise both, and then see what you end up using (= let your hand decide while you play).
A bit of an open door, really; one of the main purposes of études during the formative period is to practise and master new things (and/or things you've been avoiding).
EDIT: Jimmy Wyble | David Oakes Guitar
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I doubt that those fingerings were suggested by Jimmy Wyble. I have his out of print book and in it he does not say anything about right hand technique except that it is preferable to play the etudes fingerstyle, i.e., they are for plectrum players too, which implies there is not a "correct" way to play them. He does have left hand fingerings in the book.
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Check David Oakes's web page to which I link above. He could be the source of the RH fingerings and it would appear that he knew Wyble intimately enough and has enough "private communication" from him to be considered an authoritive source.
Edit: Actually: "He decided to leave all of the computer needs to people like myself and his friend, Russell Chan, who maintained Jimmy's own website for him."
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Thanks to everyone for the responses. In the 2001 edition that I purchased new recently, the editor (David Oakes) says, "Jimmy's right and left hand fingerings are crucial to learning this music and to devlop a clear understanding of his style and technique". I have been practicing scales and such p-i and can as I get better at it I can see that that approach has some value. But I am not really there yet and following JW's (or David Oakes') fingering is still a complicating factor in learning the piece. But I guess I will continue working at it and see where it gets me.
On the other hand, it appears that this guy uses approximately the same RH fingering as I would if I did not follow Wyble's recommendation:
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Oh, I wasn't suggesting that Wyble himself wouldn't play it with his right hand as described, only that in his book he stresses that the notes and how they are fingered are of primary importance (he gives precise fingerings for every line). He lets the reader decide how s/he'll pluck/pick them. To quote from the book, "the right hand is to be used in a classical manner (finger-style) but many new ideas will result in breakthroughs for the plectrum player as well."
Originally Posted by RJVB
What's more, the cover of the book (below) has a pic of him playing an electric guitar with pick and fingers - can't swear he's holding a pick but it sure looks like it.
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I think it’s worth persevering with all of the left and right hand fingerings that are indicated as I think that these are the most etude-y parts of the etudes. It’s my opinion that, much like George Van Eps’ material, the fingerings are kind of the point. These are the fingerings that Jimmy himself used, as can be seen pretty clearly in this clip.
What’s missing from this discussion so far is the simple point that his fingerings (for both hands) are chosen to maximise alternation and therefore the potential for each of the two voices to sound independent, smooth, and distinct. One of the basic principles of a lot of material in the etudes is that P and I work in alternation to play the lower voice, and A and M work in alternation to play the upper voice. This is especially so in the “voicing split” ideas where a fairly normal chord voicing is fingered in such a way that it can be played as a two voice idea. So a four note voicing can become two groups of diads, often played PM, IA, where P and I play the lower voice and M and A play the upper voice. The right hand fingering also plays a part in this, the voicing being re-fingered without barres, and the notes paired up with sustain carefully controlled to help bring out the two voices.
Anyway I hope that this wasn’t too obvious or dull, but I thought it was worth pointing out. There is material out there (possibly from transcriptions of his classes if I’m remembering correctly) where he explicitly lays out these ideas and the rationale behind his alternation and no barres approach.
Of course, whether or not you are convinced of the benefits of the fingerings and whether the technique works for you practically are other matters entirely! In my experience I have found the right hand approach in particular very useful and quite natural after a while. I often prefer the sound of P and I alternating on lower voices with faster articulations, although the “heaviness” of a plonking P also has its place!
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That's what I also thought, but then I started looking at one of the contrapunctual documents on Oakes's site which starts of with a much more unfamiliar RH fingering: p-m alternating with i-a on the same pair of strings (with several in between). Originally Posted by Stephen_Bridgland
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We might be talking about the same type of fingering, if I’m reading you correctly, which I may not be!
If I’m playing a C major scale in thirds up and down the B and E strings I can use P and M to play C and E respectively, then use I and A to play D and F, then back to P and M to play E and G etc. is this the fingering you are talking about?
I have also worked on this type of fingering with ridiculous and very unlikely string pairs like the two E strings, but in performing situations I never really find myself going above is tenths on EG, AB and DE.
Wyble also quite regularly uses fingerings where I and A pass underneath P and M to play the next diad. The clearest example is the arpeggio in the very first bar of etude 1.
If we’re not talking about the same thing then I apologise! Which Oakes document are you looking at?
Another good book for working on unusual but stimulating and often useful right hand fingerings is Guiliani Revisited by Christopher Berg.
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Yes, except that in this case the strings aren't adjacent (I suppose you're talking about the 2nd and 1st strings). Originally Posted by Stephen_Bridgland
See the first few examples on page 2 of https://davidoakesguitar.com/wp-cont...l_Concepts.pdf .
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Yes, those bigger string skips can feel a bit awkward at first. I found the sound and physical feeling of using these fingerings unique and compelling enough to explore further, but it’s definitely the sort of thing that won’t interest or be of use to everyone. Originally Posted by RJVB
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Ya think?
Exactly, though I'd say that you may yet surprise yourself about the latter aspect when you find yourself using it. Originally Posted by Stephen_Bridgland
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