Comping with TRIADS, Pianistically

[NSJ]

I'm taking a piano class at a community college (based on the belief that everyone should play some piano.)
I've discovered a couple of things right away.

piano players start with triads right away. Boom, tonic triad, IV triad, V triad.

2nd--I can apply this to the guitar.

In in the piano class, the I-IV-V7 triads were first presented in the following way, for optimal voice leading

I is root position I ( or 53 in figured bass)
V7 is in first inversion with the 5th omitted (V in 65 in figured bass)
IV is in 2nd inversion (64 in figured bass)

But I was able to get three additional chords easily from this

---the ii chord is the IV chord rootless. Move the 5th of the IV chord up a whole step and and you get the ii chord with the root.
---move the root of tonic triad down a half step and you get the iii chord
---move the 5th of the tonic triad one whole step and you for get the vi chord

since this is musical concept and not a fingering concept, it works elegantly in various parts of the neck to get the aforementioned chords in various regions of the finger board (I tend to think in three regions ---frets 1-4, frets 5-8 and 9-12) in all keys.

since I have a couple of comping ops with a singer and a band coming up, I've really tried to shed this , beginning on strings 234.

It works really elegantly with minimal movment and proper voice leading.

there are ways of also playing the vii chord as well that is a different inversion than the I chord as well. But that requires bigger movement of voices than either a M2 or m2.

[destinytot]

This looks really interesting - thank you! (I'm trying to map out triads in Maarty Grosz tuning for chord soloing.)

[NSJ]

This looks really interesting - thank you! (I'm trying to map out triads in Maarty Grosz tuning for chord soloing.)

Thanks. Let me clarify a bit.

The fundamental principle is that you can derive any three note diatonic triad voicing from the I chord, just by moving constituent voices up or down. All the resulting diatonic chords will be triads, except the V chord, which will be a 3 note shell voicing (a 7th chord with the 5th omitted---137, 371, 713).

It works with any I chord, root, 1st or 2nd inversion. Therefore, between the nut on the 12th fret, we will have three different ways to voice each diatonic chord .

Let's start with the tonic triad in the key of C: CEG.

1. Move the root down a half step and a third up a half step --BFG. This a V7 shell chord voiced as 371.
2. Move the third of the tonic triad up a half step and move the fifth of the tonic triad up a whole step--CFA-- this is the IV chord--second inversion. This is also the ii chord without the root. (b7 b3 5). You can move the fifth of the resultant IV chord up a whole step to get the ii chord with the root. (DFA).
3. Move the root of the tonic triad down a half step to get the iii chord (BEG) 2nd inversion.
4. Move the fifth of the tonic triad up a whole step to get the vi chord (CEA), 1st inversion.
5. For the vii chord, you can either play it in root position as the tonic Triad, or if you want an inversion, move the fifth of the tonic triad up a M3 and the root up a M2.

6. Also, you can use the rootless versions of a 1573 drop 2 (573) and the rootless version of a 1735 (735) to create two additional V7 chord voicings that work well on strings 234 with the shell voicings already derived. One will find that these two particular voicings are the same as a vii triad.

Thus, you should have three voicings for each triad, and five voicings for the three note V7 shell voicing.

[MarkRhodes]

I

In in the piano class, the I-IV-V7 triads were first presented in the following way, for optimal voice leading

I is root position I ( or 53 in figured bass)
V7 is in first inversion with the 5th omitted (V in 65 in figured bass)
IV is in 2nd inversion (64 in figured bass)

But I was able to get three additional chords easily from this

---the ii chord is the IV chord rootless. Move the 5th of the IV chord up a whole step and and you get the ii chord with the root.
---move the root of tonic triad down a half step and you get the iii chord
---move the 5th of the tonic triad one whole step and you for get the vi chord

Hhmm. I'm going to see what I can do with this.... Thanks!

[dingusmingus]

I got a basic version of the Van Eps Harmonic mechanism approach from Steve Herberman. I was doing each inversion of each diatonic triad, and moving each voice up and down a diatonic step. You start to see relationships like those you're describing, though I didn't try moving two voices.

[docbop]

A lot of the thing I have been studying over past year has been from horn players and piano players. I'm getting jealous of piano players the things they can do with voicings that would sound like crap on a guitar is amazing. I'm also seeing how much they do with triads (polychords), but just adding notes from a chord outside the harmony then resolving. This and other source really has me looking at the triads withing scales especially symmetric scales for comping and lines.

I really need to do some spring cleaning in my little shoebox apartment to make room to setup keyboard and get some basic technique on piano it is an invaluable tool for studying music.

Triads Rule (and from also from the Stern POV just mean three note chord).

[matt.guitarteacher]

I'll admit to being slightly irritated with all of the triad talk in recent months, probably due to my own issues with knowledge of them on the fretboard.

In recent weeks, I've spent a lot of time with triads and find that they're pretty amazing.

1. They're mentally freeing; very uncluttered.
2. When used melodically, they pretty naturally voice lead.
3. There are just so few of them that you can learn them everywhere pretty quickly.
4. They allow you to map the fretboard and make connections in new ways.

I've been mostly playing triad chord melody out of Jumpin' Jim's Daily Ukulele books (on guitar). My kids are strumming ukes, and I kind of accidentally fell into triads through playing simpler tunes like this. (What can I say? I've somewhat fallen off the wagon.)

Anyway, all of the 4 note chords I used in playing jazz were a kind of crutch which didn't work with simpler harmony. I think I could have learned to play this way as a kid. It's pretty simple. I think triads are probably a logical way to start, even on guitar. I'm amazed at how great they sound. You sacrifice bass for really pure voice leading. But you see relationships between things and take shapes "out of boxes" more. At this point, I'm more or less just mapping and enjoying gratuitously cheesy music. Not a lot of thought yet to applying to jazz playing. Have to get through Christmas. Busy time of year.

Let me know and I'll post a quick CM of a Hawaiian love song. :-) Ha!

[jordanklemons]

I just wrapped up writing the 1st draft of my thesis. The entire focus of my exploration within it is to take an idea from the piano player book as far as how they utilize upper structure triads within chords, and to see how those ideas can be applied to the fretboard. I wrote 26 pages filled with ideas, chord melody arrangements, comping etudes, etc with them.... ranging from big 5-6 note chords all the way down to dyads... but all based on triads.

They are sooooooo useful and powerful.

Look forward to reading more about your discoveries as you work through this stuff!

[matt.guitarteacher]

The entire focus of my exploration within it is to take an idea from the piano player book as far as how they utilize upper structure triads within chords, and to see how those ideas can be applied to the fretboard.

Cool. What book/books are you talking about?

[NSJ]

I just wrapped up writing the 1st draft of my thesis. The entire focus of my exploration within it is to take an idea from the piano player book as far as how they utilize upper structure triads within chords, and to see how those ideas can be applied to the fretboard. I wrote 26 pages filled with ideas, chord melody arrangements, comping etudes, etc with them.... ranging from big 5-6 note chords all the way down to dyads... but all based on triads.

They are sooooooo useful and powerful.

Look forward to reading more about your discoveries as you work through this stuff!

Are you trying to follow up to Georgia v Eps' monumental "Harmonkc Mechanisms for Guitar", that 3 volume mgnum opus that is hundreds of pages long ? I keep all three volumes on my shelf as a reference. Maybe Steve Herberman and Ben Momder are the only ones that have finished it, start to end.

Incidentally, when it was originally published, v Eps told my teacher that Mel Bay, the publishers, heavily edited it. His original version were the size of telephone books !

at some point, I'll dust em off and peek at a few pages again

One follow up observation that I made is: The iii chords derived from my original post are the same as the rootless versions of M7 drop 2 and drop 3 chords.

[jordanklemons]

Cool. What book/books are you talking about?

Sorry for the confusion on this Matt. I didn't mean a literal book. I just meant it as in "taking an idea from the way piano players think."

I did use Mark Levin's book, "The Jazz Piano Book" as a source, but it was mostly just to show that piano method books dig deeper into upper structure triads than guitar books do. However, I pretty quickly pointed out in my thesis that I was going to attempt to define and utilize them differently than Mark in his book. He defines an us-triad as any triad superimposed over a tritone. I don't see the necessity of having a tritone underneath it.

I was turned onto this way of thinking by studying with a non-guitarist. Not by reading a book. I hope he writes a book one day. I know he's developing a ridiculously cool app right now. I'm supposed to be getting a copy to critique as it's in the testing stage which means it will hopefully be released soon. It's all about harmony, triads, upper structure triads, ear training, etc. It's pretty badass.

[jordanklemons]

Are you trying to follow up to Georgia v Eps' monumental "Harmonkc Mechanisms for Guitar", that 3 volume mgnum opus that is hundreds of pages long ? I keep all three volumes on my shelf as a reference. Maybe Steve Herberman and Ben Momder are the only ones that have finished it, start to end.

Honestly, I'm not sure. I skimmed through one of the volumes many many years ago for about 30 seconds, but never really dug in.

I don't think it's following up his work, but maybe it could be, I don't know. I do know that I reference Monder in my thesis only to show that we're on different pages. Ben is BRILLIANT and a true master of harmony on the guitar. I own his 'my music masterclass' instructional video and highly recommend it to anyone wanting to learn more about the fretboard. But it's a very guitar-based approach. Whereas, the goal for my thesis was to take a piano player-style approach of upper structure triads, and explore how well it can be applied to the fretboard. Neither one is right or wrong, I just LOVE the sound of a piano player with a great harmonic vocabulary, and I wanted to try to restructure my own by getting away from the geometric thinking prevalent in guitar education and starting from a different place.

So if Ben finished GVE's works, it is unlikely that what I am exploring and writing about is following up on it, since it seems different to me. Plus I hear guys on the forum talking about GVE's books a lot and have yet to see what I'm working on being talked about around here. But again, I haven't read his works yet. So I really have no idea. It's possible they're more related than I know.

[christianm77]

The capitalisation of TRIADS reminded me that it is an anagram of TARDIS which is appropriate on so many levels I can't even start.

PS: listening to Ben Monders Hydra. It is the proggiest thing I have ever heard. I can recommend his masterclass series which should keep me busy for a few decades. Also deals with TARDIS. And I DARTS and DI RATS.

[NSJ]

It seems to me there are 6 essential types of three note voicings . That is, in terms of things that are regularly played, not esoteric combinations and permutations
1. Conventional triads and inversions -- built-in thirds mostly but also in fourths
2. Shell voicings that omit the 5th (137)
3. Rootless 7th chords (357)
4. Guide tones (3rds and 7ths ) or 3rd and 6th plus a melody note that could be either diatonic/chromatic to the scale or to the chord of the moment.
5. Some combo of GTs and important extensions
6. Modal voicings - or as Alan Holdsworth says, any combination of diatonic notes in the scale in any order, so long as I can play them. Obviously, you can use fourth voicings and first inversion triads, for example, and go up and down the scale in the modal fashion.

[PMB]

The capitalisation of TRIADS reminded me that it is an anagram of TARDIS which is appropriate on so many levels I can't even start.

PS: listening to Ben Monders Hydra. It is the proggiest thing I have ever heard. I can recommend his masterclass series which should keep me busy for a few decades. Also deals with TARDIS. And I DARTS and DI RATS.

You didn't mention IT'S RAD!

[destinytot]

Thanks. Let me clarify a bit.

The fundamental principle is that you can derive any three note diatonic triad voicing from the I chord, just by moving constituent voices up or down. All the resulting diatonic chords will be triads, except the V chord, which will be a 3 note shell voicing (a 7th chord with the 5th omitted---137, 371, 713).

It works with any I chord, root, 1st or 2nd inversion. Therefore, between the nut on the 12th fret, we will have three different ways to voice each diatonic chord .

Let's start with the tonic triad in the key of C: CEG.

1. Move the root down a half step and a third up a half step --BFG. This a V7 shell chord voiced as 371.
2. Move the third of the tonic triad up a half step and move the fifth of the tonic triad up a whole step--CFA-- this is the IV chord--second inversion. This is also the ii chord without the root. (b7 b3 5). You can move the fifth of the resultant IV chord up a whole step to get the ii chord with the root. (DFA).
3. Move the root of the tonic triad down a half step to get the iii chord (BEG) 2nd inversion.
4. Move the fifth of the tonic triad up a whole step to get the vi chord (CEA), 1st inversion.
5. For the vii chord, you can either play it in root position as the tonic Triad, or if you want an inversion, move the fifth of the tonic triad up a M3 and the root up a M2.

6. Also, you can use the rootless versions of a 1573 drop 2 (573) and the rootless version of a 1735 (735) to create two additional V7 chord voicings that work well on strings 234 with the shell voicings already derived. One will find that these two particular voicings are the same as a vii triad.

Thus, you should have three voicings for each triad, and five voicings for the three note V7 shell voicing.

Going to devote time to this today. Thanks again!

[christianm77]

You didn't mention IT'S RAD!

Haven't got to that bit in the video yet. :-)

[bako]

See attachment. Too hard to format in this window.

Five class of chords. Close voiced inversions to the left and spread voiced inversions to the right.