When is a flat 5 a sharp 11? or a sharp 5 a flat 13? and does it matter?

[matt.guitarteacher]

I don't think it matters.

Technically any alteration over the octave should include the notes beneath it. So a b13 should include the 9 and 11. Not that one necessarily plays them all on a guitar for practical reasons.

So, technically, a G7#5 would imply G B D# F and a G7b13 would imply G B D F A C D#...

But, of course, it's just played 3x344x as we all know. Or xx3443. Or any of the others. It's a question of finding the sound you want.

Joe Pass: 'I don't like theory, it confuses me'.

it doesn't matter if you're playing guitar by yourself. if you're communicating with other musicians with the chart though, one conveys what different types of voicings can be played over a symbol or soloing. it's important for knowing how to communicate, and interpreting or conveying specificity when it's actually needed/desired/required.

A simple 7#5 voicing on the guitar may as well be 7b13 for the way that we typically play it, but it doesn't address all the implications of the music or playing with others. Joe Pass knew all of this theory, at least aurally. I guess it doesn't matter if you have HIS ears, but that's a big if. Anybody fits in the number of hours Joe did can probably do whatever. I would probably have to start over as a kid to be there.

Knowing some terminology isn't going to make you hear LESS.

[oldane]

Really really great post- my inner nerd has been awakened


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yep. But then I think of Duke Ellington: "If it sounds right, it is right."

[matt.guitarteacher]

Yep. But then I think of Duke Ellington: "If it sounds right, it is right."

I'm sorry, but what does this even MEAN in the context of THIS conversation?

[Meggy]

Although I essentially agree with all the answers given above, I thought I'd share my ideas about the topic.
So to the OP, a b13 and a #5 is the same note. So its the same sound. The name is "after the fact".

Chords are usually first defined as stacked thirds, the lowest note called the root, then 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th. But then you learn about inversions and extensions and alterations, and so the order gets jumbled, and questions of terminology gets confusing.

Any attempt to "mathematize" this runs into problems:
Why not play random note clusters while comping? why not just play
Cmaj13(#9b9#5#11) over the whole form? You'll always be playing the right notes!

In my view, in jazz guitar, it is best to completely ignore "root and 5th":that's the bass player's domain. As a comping or soloing guitarist, you should view the order (of importance) of notes building chords differently: 3rd (or flat 3rd) is first, 7th (or flat 7th) is second. Everything else is a sound or color that through practice you get to know and understand how/when to use, regardless of what that sound might be named. (of course in solo guitar you want to cover the bass player's role *in addition* so you might think of the root and 5th, but as a separate ingredient, rather than part of the harmony)

If you aren't sure, it is best to not use anything beyond 3 and 7 until you know exactly what the sound is, and intend to use that sound. As long as you can identify from a chart whether a chord is major, minor, or dominant, you'll be ok with just the 3rd and 7th in a comping situation.

So if you see a chord symbol with a b5 or you see one with a #11 in a chart, the intent may be the same or it may be completely different, depending on the context (as many of the answers upthread suggest). For example, in Bebop you might see G7#11 but you probably won't see a Gmaj7#11. in Bebop a G7#11 is more likely to be a II dominant chord than an altered V chord, and as a II dominant using both the #11 and the 5 might be OK in a soloing or comping, but maybe it would be more common to use the #5 rather than the 5 if the G7#11 is a V chord resolving to a C. In 70s straight ahead jazz Maj7#5 became a popular sound, but the sound is the combination of 3 7 and #5, not the #5 by itself, and a 13th might or might not) be a nice note to use over this chord. (eg a Gmaj7#5 might also be spelled B/G, and the 13th (E) from a Gmaj point of view is 4th from a B point of view, but sometimes a 4th is considered an "avoid note" over a major: so context determines whether to use both the 13th and #5)

So my point can be stated more rudely as "if you have to ask you are not ready to understand the answer" i.e. context/stylistic convention determines whether the symbol #5 or #11 or b5 or b13 excludes using a 5, etc. Chord symbols and note names are just ways for musicians to communicate the sound they are after, but precisely what rules they intend to apply to their notation comes from the sound, not the nomenclature. And as an improvisor you first should understand what was intended, then decide whether you want to follow the intent or to ignore it.

Incidentally, when you listen to great jazz guitarists, you'll hear that many of them are masters at peppering their single note solos with 2-note chords, typically 3&7, because they know this is all they need to imply the harmony. I think practicing comping with no roots, 5ths, or colors is a valuable exercise because it turns comping and single note soloing into two ends of a spectrum of improvising.

Great post, thanks for taking the time to share this - I will only disagree in that I think I am ready to hear the answers, even though I had to ask and also re missing out the root and 5th, because the bass player is handling that stuff - you should try playing with some of the bass players I have to...

[pkirk]

Great post, thanks for taking the time to share this - I will only disagree in that I think I am ready to hear the answers, even though I had to ask and also re missing out the root and 5th, because the bass player is handling that stuff - you should try playing with some of the bass players I have to...

Yeah, I didnt mean to suggest "you can't handle the truth" What I meant is to expand on the usual brief "you have to hear it" (or "if it sounds good, its OK") answer to this type question. Those answers, in the end, are exactly correct, but may seem cryptic or evasive.


I've gone through a phase where I put a #11 on all my major chords, and another phase where I put #5 on all my major chords, a phase where I put a 9 on all my minor chords (anybody hear the pop song "Smooth operator"? clearly Sade was in that phase), a phase where I put a maj7 on all my minor chords, etc, each time first becoming infatuated with a particular sound, overusing it, noticing it (or its absence) when I listen to music, then internalizing it, and eventually using it tastefully (to my ears, anyway). When that last step occurs, I'd say I "hear" the sound.

[Bluedawg]

Great explanations above ....

For myself I see a b5 and #11 as the same note ... on a guitar ..

But on a piano keyboard and as a point of discussion for musical theory .... I have to agree with the others that the #11 would occur an octave above the b5 .... and a#11 chord can also include the natural 5 and possibly even the 7 .. maybe the 9

And the same for other similar note questions like the #5 and b13

I'm sure a piano player would still make some voicing choices on how to actually play such a chord based on the musical piece and the most efficient fingerings for that piece

[Meggy]

Thanks for all the responses everyone, it's all great stuff. Can I mischievously ask how people might name this A7-type chord?

585655

There's a #5 or b13 on the A string, and then a natural 5th higher up in the voicing. One could argue that the A string note can't be called a #5 because there's also a natural 5th, but also one could argue the the A string note is in the wrong octave to be called a b13.

[Edit - I've now corrected an error I made when typing the chord above - originally I'd typed "575655" ]

[dconeill]

C D E F G A B c d e f g a b
C is 1
E is 3
G is 5
B is 7
D is 9
F is 11
A is 13

G7 is G B D F (root position intervals M3 m3 m3)
C7 (which is diatonic to the key of F, btw, but not to C) is C E G Bb
C9 is C E G Bb D
C7b9 is C E G Bb Db
C11 is C E G Bb D F
C11b9 is C E G Bb Db F
C7b9#11 is C E G Bb Db F#
C7b5 is C E Gb Bb
C9#11 is C E G Bb D F#
C9b5#11 is C E Gb Bb D F#
C7 add#11 is C E G Bb F#
C7b5 add#11 is C E Gb Bb F#

So in tertiary harmony generally you start a chord name with the Major/minor/dominant 7th chord
C E G B = Maj7
C E G Bb = 7 (dominant 7th chord)
C Eb G Bb = m7
C Eb Gb Bb = m7b5 or half-diminished
C Eb Gb Bbb = diminished
C E G# B = augmented (often called augmented 7)

Then you add extensions as 9, 11, 13
If the chord is one of the basic chord types you just write the root, the quality if necessary, and the uppermost extension; e.g., C13 = C7 + 9 + 11 + 13 = C E G Bb D F A
If any of the notes are altered from the basic chord qualities, pull those out, write the altered chord tones at the end, and make the basic chord name whatever's left; e.g., say you've got a 13 chord (i.e., a dominant 13) with a raised 9, you'd write C13 #9.

On guitar it's a little more complicated because you can usually only play at most 4 pitch names at a time. The player often decides what to leave out. Usually the most important pitches are the 3rd, the 7th, and the uppermost extension. The root is often being played by someone else or is implied by previous or subsequent chords, so you can include it or not. If there's an internal alteration, you could play that instead of the root if the situation called for it.

So if the chord were C13 #11 (C E G Bb D F# A), on guitar you would play one of
C E G Bb D E F# A (full C13 #11 chord, not playable on guitar; for reference)
C E Bb A (C13 #11 on guitar, leaving out the 5th, 9th, and 11th
C E Bb F# (C13 #11 on guitar, leaving out the 5th, 9th, and 13th;
you have to decide whether the #11 or 13 is more important in context)
E Bb A (C13 #11 on guitar, no root [see bassist], no 5, 9, or 11)
E Bb F# A (C13 #11, no root, 5, or 9)

If pitch order or which notes to omit was important to the composer/arranger, then there are various ways of indicating that. "add" usually means put the named pitch on top; slash notation usually means put the named pitch on the bottom.
C7/F# means play the F# on the bottom, then a C7 above it.
C7 add#11 means play a C7 with an F# on top.

And there're more complications yet, but I won't go into those.

[pkirk]

Thanks for all the responses everyone, it's all great stuff. Can I mischievously ask how people might name this A7-type chord?

575655

There's a #5 or b13 on the A string, and then a natural 5th higher up in the voicing. One could argue that the A string note can't be called a #5 because there's also a natural 5th, but also one could argue the the A string note is in the wrong octave to be called a b13.

You must mean 585655.

[christianm77]

Often the extensions you get in lead sheets for standards come from a chromatic chord with a diatonic melody. As a result the enharmony comes from this kind of consideration.

So, for example, in the key of C

Bb7 with an E in the melody - well it's a Bb to D so - #11
Ab7 with a D in the melody (common!) - also #11
B7 with a F in the melody has to be a b5 OTOH, because a normal 5th above B is F#.
F#7 with a C in the melody - the same, b5

And so and so forth.

People may laugh at my fuddy duddy ways but I honestly think a careful examination of enharmony and how you need to alter the basic key to get the chord really helps out with basic tonal harmony, music theory and changes playing.

This actually has some ramifications for chord scale use too. 7#11 chords do tend to work better with the 7#11 scales like Lydian Dominant and Whole Tone, while 7b5 chords work better with Altered Scale type sounds. Of course there's a lot of leeway and messing around you can get up to.

We don't talk about G7b10, though. :-)

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

You must mean 585655.

Seriously (no couch hiding), I'd call that a A7b6. Not because of the register of the Fnat but because b13 implies there will be at least be a 9th around.

But then I don't differentiate between (add 2) and (add 9) as far as register goes. I'm going to ignore all advice, anyway!

[rpjazzguitar]

This actually has some ramifications for chord scale use too. 7#11 chords do tend to work better with the 7#11 scales like Lydian Dominant and Whole Tone, while 7b5 chords work better with Altered Scale type sounds. Of course there's a lot of leeway and messing around you can get up to.

Just trying to think this through ...

So, G7#11 is G B C# F and the underlying scale is G A B C# D E F, or so it seems to me.

Whereas, G7b5 is G B C# F (same thing) with the underlying scale being G A B C Db E F.

So, G7#11 has a C# and a D.

G7b5 has a C and a Db.

G lydian dominant is G A B C# D E F, or so I think, so it fits G7#11 perfectly.

G WT is G A B C# D# F which doesn't quite fit because of the D vs D#, even though it has the chord tones.

G alt is G Ab Bb B Db Eb F. Again, it has the chord tones, but different alterations.

So I guess it's a question of which alterations you want in a given situation.

That said, I see 7b5 generally in older charts -- and I suspect a modern writer would spell it 7#11 in many or most cases.


For me, and I haven't quite thought through the theory, the issue is usually whether I want lyd dominant or if I want alt.

If I have a G7 about to resolve to C, I like alt. I think Abm9 or G alt. That way, you're playing a bunch of notes that resolve nice to a C chord. If, on the other hand, you played G lyd dom, only the Db would feel like it was resolving. So, the feeling of tension/resolution is lessened.

But, if the chart says Db7 resolving to C, I treat it as lyd dominant. Meaning, I play more or less the same thing. One way to think of it is that the chord instrument is playing the tritone sub in one case and the melody instrument is playing the tritone sub in the other.

This approach yields the stronger tension/resolution in each case. If, instead you played Db lyd dom against the Db7 (on your way to C), you take away the tension and it sounds bland.

Hmm ... I guess I'm still confused about #11 vs b5. Might you be able to give an example or two from some well known tunes?

[Meggy]

You must mean 585655.

Correct - apologies for the error and lack of clarity, and glad you could see what I meant to type.

[John A.]

I'm sure this has come up before, so my apologies if it's a boring subject. But re the title, I have to admit I've never really understood the convention re naming dominant chords with altered notes, especially in regard to what I generally think of as an altered 5th. I work with a keyboard player who generally writes +11 or b13 - it doesn't seem to matter in practice, as we both know what the other means (he sometimes writes b10 where I'd say #9 as well, but perhaps I'd better leave that one alone for now).

I have found it's possible to include both the altered 5th notes in a chord voicing, and even the natural 5th as well, for example:

565665 would be an A7 with both sharp and flat 5
575665 has both natural 5 and sharp 5
556576 is a D7 with flat 5, natural 5 and sharp 5 all in there (natural 5th in the bass)

...except in such cases I may well be wrong in my terminology.

There's a much simpler way to understand all of this. Whenever you see either #5 or b13, play a b9 chord :-)

John

[Lionelsax]

Jazz doesn't care about enharmonic notes.
A diminished fourth is like a major third.
Jazz doesn't care about enharmonic notes that's why false relations are so loved !

[Lionelsax]

There's a much simpler way to understand all of this. Whenever you see either #5 or b13, play a b9 chord :-)

John

I hope you're kidding.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Jazz doesn't care about enharmonic notes.
A diminished fourth is like a major third.
Jazz doesn't care about enharmonic notes that's why false relations are so loved !

Right, but jazz doesn't interpret chord symbols either. Players do. There are implications for how players interpret them. Aren't there?

[John A.]

I hope you're kidding.

Sort of ... In general, I think of all altered dominants as interchangeable (making adjustments for context), and a good percent of the time a 7b9 is where my fingers happen to wind up on a V7, regardless of what the chart actually says.

John

[christianm77]

Jazz doesn't care about enharmonic notes.
A diminished fourth is like a major third.
Jazz doesn't care about enharmonic notes that's why false relations are so loved !

Is it. OK that settles it then. Sounds legit to me.

[amyFB]

Great explanations above ....

For myself I see a b5 and #11 as the same note ... on a guitar ..

But on a piano keyboard and as a point of discussion for musical theory .... I have to agree with the others that the #11 would occur an octave above the b5 .... and a#11 chord can also include the natural 5 and possibly even the 7 .. maybe the 9

And the same for other similar note questions like the #5 and b13

I'm sure a piano player would still make some voicing choices on how to actually play such a chord based on the musical piece and the most efficient fingerings for that piece

On guitar my approach is like you describe for piano. It was my first understanding that any number over 8 was intended to be heard on the top.

Edit: I learned a lot of new chords finding stuff that worked!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[christianm77]

There's a much simpler way to understand all of this. Whenever you see either #5 or b13, play a b9 chord :-)

John

Fuck it, it's pretty much what I do.

Extensions are like tax returns and the bible, not to be taken literally.

People get far too hung up on this stuff. Stop it and get on with playing some frickin lines.

[christianm77]

Also the altered scale sounds rank on VI7b9 but brilliant on III7b9 or V7b9.

But the 7b9 always sounds good on any dominant at all.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Also the altered scale sounds rank on VI7b9 but brilliant on III7b9 or V7b9.

But the 7b9 always sounds good on any dominant at all.

There's an Italian saying you could repurpose: "Verdi is like chicken, there are no bad parts."

[christianm77]

Come to think about it, what I think about extensions with respect to standard jazz repertoire is this:

Comping
- Learn the melody and play chords that support it. For instance don't be a dick and play a Bbm7 in Days of Wine and Roses :-) I mean that's not even an extension really, that's just the seventh and already we're in trouble. IT'S THE MELODY STOOPID.

Soloing
- When expressing the chords, you have freedom in what you do with them, although it's nice to reference the melody in your solos as well as running the changes.

Chord charts
- Chord charts are designed to make sure you don't play anything that will clash horribly with the melody. If you are reading a chord chart for a tune you don't know, this is VERY helpful, especially when working with a singer. So the chord chart says Bbm(maj7) or something for Days of Wine and Roses and then when reading the changes you don't play an Ab in the top voice of your chord like an absolute jazz onion and lose you the singer gig....

That's it. Everything else be the work of man, so to speak.

Some players like to use extensions created by the melody against the chords to generate upper structure thingies and chord scales. That's a more modern post-Berklee vibe AFAIK.

[Lionelsax]

Right, but jazz doesn't interpret chord symbols either. Players do. There are implications for how players interpret them. Aren't there?

I play what it's important for me.
Sometimes I play C7+ instead of C7+9, C7 instead of C7b9, sometimes C7+4, could sound weird but it sounds good.
On piano I play voicings : C7 = C13 (E A Bb D) ; C-7 = C-9 (Eb G Bb D) ; C7+9 = C7+9 (E G# Bb Eb) ; CMaj7 = CMaj9 (E G B D)
All chords are extended.
For C7b9 I play a diminished chord...

When it's too complicated or too uncomfortable for me, I just play R 3 7 !