C#m7b5 Chord in the key of Eb?

**bobsguitars09** · 09-22-2009, 10:13 PM

I have a song in the key of Eb and there is a C#m7b5 Chord.

Shouldnt it be listed as a Dbm7b5?

**JohnW400** · 09-22-2009, 10:22 PM

Depends. Where is it coming from and where does it go?

**bobsguitars09** · 09-22-2009, 10:32 PM

Em7/d C#m7b5 F#7(b9) Bm

Bills Hit Tune - Bill Evans

Thanks for the help John

**GodinFan** · 09-22-2009, 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

I have a song in the key of Eb and there is a C#m7b5 Chord.

Shouldnt it be listed as a Dbm7b5?

Simply put, spelling it as C#m7b5 is easier:

C# E G B

Dbm7b5 would be: Db Fb Abb Cb

**Luan** · 09-23-2009, 12:37 AM

It's the II of the II-7(b5) V7 in the key of B minor.

**voelker** · 09-23-2009, 02:07 AM

like luan said, that portion of the song is not in Eb, its B minor/D major. there is no Db in Eb anyway. look at that whole set of changes (Em7/d C#m7b5 F#7(b9) Bm) theres no E,F#, or B in Eb either.
it's easier to use a few accidentals than change the key signature for part of the song.

**Jake Hanlon** · 09-23-2009, 07:44 AM

hey now don't say it's in B minor or D major. It's B minor, straight up, nothing Major at all about that part of the progression.

**voelker** · 09-27-2009, 11:11 PM

wow that's a pretty strong opinion jake, i still prefer to keep an open mind. theres always more than one way to skin a cat. it's definitly possible to look at the Em7 as the ii of D major and the C#m7b5 as an upper structure A9 the V of D major,

**Luan** · 09-27-2009, 11:31 PM

But the progression is C#-7(b5) F#7(b9), there is not much to discuss.

**Joe Dalton** · 09-28-2009, 03:26 AM

Yeah it's a clasic prog, I love the sound of a harmonic minor over it.

**Jake Hanlon** · 09-28-2009, 08:46 AM

you can respell the chord a million ways that's true. There are only 12 notes. However this is not just a chord sitting there, it's a progression of harmony that is a cadence, it leads to B minor. While B minor and D major are strongly related keys they still are different and require different Cadences. We're not talking non-functional harmony here. If we were, different story :-)

**voelker** · 09-29-2009, 04:06 AM

All I was trying to say is that the key signature would be the same since the question was about calling C#, Db. and for me it's very helpful to always be thinking about relative major/minor when it comes to organizing the fretboard. when i see the key signature (F#, C#) i automatically think D major/B minor. But it's all theory and I guess it doesn't matter what we call it as long as we know how to make it sound good. if we want to be real specific the (C#-7b5 F#7b9 Bm) makes it B harmonic minor. so since it is not Bm7, and doesn't have an A natural. Would they have then put the A# in the key signature (F#, C#, A#)? Do people write in harmonic and melodic minor key signatures? Or do they just use accidentals?

**joe pass jr** · 09-29-2009, 04:44 AM

Yes, as it was already stated. You simply have a ii-Vb9-i (aka minor 2 5 1) progression. Charts are usually written with what ever key signature agrees most with the melody, or they base the key on which ever chord the tune starts/ends on. This is Jazz after all... Since when do you get more than 2 bars of the same tonal centre?

" it's definitly possible to look at the Em7 as the ii of D major and the C#m7b5 as an upper structure A9 the V of D major, "

Your overreaching on this one sorry. Sure, C#m7b5 is a rootless A9 but it serves no function for the F#7b9 in this context.

I have seen harmonic minor key signatures in Classical scores.. not jazz charts though, people just add accidentals where necessary.

**randalljazz** · 09-29-2009, 05:37 AM

Originally Posted by voelker

All I was trying to say is that the key signature would be the same since the question was about calling C#, Db. and for me it's very helpful to always be thinking about relative major/minor when it comes to organizing the fretboard. when i see the key signature (F#, C#) i automatically think D major/B minor. But it's all theory and I guess it doesn't matter what we call it as long as we know how to make it sound good. if we want to be real specific the (C#-7b5 F#7b9 Bm) makes it B harmonic minor. so since it is not Bm7, and doesn't have an A natural. Would they have then put the A# in the key signature (F#, C#, A#)? Do people write in harmonic and melodic minor key signatures? Or do they just use accidentals?

the order of accidentals in key signatures is fixed and not varied (in common practice). there is no melodic minor or harmonic minor key signature. for that matter, there is no major or minor key signature. it is just the key signature. the mode can only be determined by looking at the music. key signature for C major looks exactly like that of A minor. (no sharps or flats). any variation, whether "melodic" or "harmonic" minor, or any other oddities of pitch collection, are indicated by accidentals in the score itself.

**Jake Hanlon** · 09-29-2009, 08:51 AM

What defines a Major from Relative minor key center is the cadences that outline keys.

Yes, Dmajor and B minor have the same key. That much is clear. Again, they do not follow the same progression of harmonic cadence, thus are different, very much different despite having the same 7 pitches... order of half steps, spacing of avoid tone etc etc etc etc.

But hey, it's all good man. Believe what you want to about Major Vs. Minor or chord substituations that's fine. I'm just going with what Bach was doing.

**voelker** · 09-30-2009, 02:42 AM

Randalljazz- Thanks, that clears things up. That makes sense “there is no major or minor key signature, it is just the key signature.” To me, when I think key, I think of a map and the key tells you what the map means. Like a key signature tells you what the notes will be, not necessarily what the tonal center is. So when someone says “this song is in the key of C major,” is it just a short cut for saying “the tonal center is C ionian and the key has no sharps or flats”?

Jake- I don’t want it to look like I’m arguing. I’m here to learn and I realize you have studied a lot longer than I have. I don’t even know what we’re arguing about. We agree that they have the same key signature, but I never said anything about cadences. I know you need to play the notes differently and I understand a little bit about cadences, but I haven’t looked at them that closely and I definitely don’t know what bach would have to say about jazz guitar. What key is (or should I say what is the tonal center of) a deceptive cadence (ex.) Em7 A9 Bm7 ? I have a few more cadence questions. I’ll send you a personal message if you don’t mind.