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The pentatonic scale has the intervals R-m3-P4-P5-m7.
Then the idea is to use this scale to solo over m7, 7 and maj7 chords.
But if the interval of pentatonic are fixed, what does it mean to use this scale to solo over m7, 7 and maj7 chords?
Thanks so much for any tips as I look forward to continue studying/practicing.
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01-01-2020 01:36 PM
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There's a pro here who does a lot with Pentatonics and did more back in the day I guess. Reg... Check out his YouTube channel.
Anyway, the gist of a lot of it is basically playing what he calls Dorian pentatonic for minor and Lydian pentatonic for major types.
Gmaj7 would be F#ABDE (as if the IV of DMAJ pentatonic)
Am7 would be ABDEG (ii of Gmaj)
Dominant types are 9th arps (5 notes= pentatonic)
Altered is those same dom 9th pentatonics a tritone away.
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Reg523 is his YouTube handle. There's some great playing there. Anyway, all of the superfast 16th note fills which are too fast to see/hear are basically this pentatonic approach . A lot of the altered stuff especially.
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Here's something I give my students. Hope it helps. Let me know if you have any questions.
Tip: The intervals of the scale are based on the chord it's being played over.
pentatonics.pdfLast edited by Dana; 01-03-2020 at 10:47 AM.
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Perhaps this will help:
Using just standard major (1 2 3 5 6) and minor (1 b3 4 5 b7) pentatonics:
Cma7 - C D E G A or G A B D E
Cm7 - C Eb F G Bb or G Bb C D F
C7 - C D E G A or C Eb F G Bb or even both scales combined C D Eb E F G A Bb
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In Vic Juris (rip) video "All That Jazz" he shows a very cool easy application over a 2/5/1 progression. Take Dminor 7/ G7 alt (b13 #9) to C major 7. Use the Aminor pentatonic shape (A, C, D, E, G) over first the D minor 7th. Then move the same pentatonic up a half step (Bb pentatonic) for the G7 alt. This gives you Bb =#9, C# =#4 or b5, Eb =#5, F= b7, G# =b9...Finally another half step up (B pentatonic) for the C major 7th. B Gives you the major 7th, D the ninth, E the major 3rd, F# the #4 (think lydian) and A the 6th. Moving the same shape up a half step at a time gives some very hip altered notes while playing a simple shape we all learned in rock and roll. BTW the whole video is excellent.
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I'd think I'd find that more useful if instead (or in addition) it didn't fix that scale and move the chords, but if it fixed the chords and moved the scales. Took, say, a ii-V-I in C and looked at pents over it .
Originally Posted by Dana
Then:
1. In C, there are three minor chords and so three minor pents. (ii=Dm, iii=Em, vi=Am)
2. All work over the ii chord:
Dm pent over Dm (m7 add 4 sound)
Am pent over Dm (m11 sound)
Em pent over Dm (m13 sound)
As you go Dm pent -> Am pent -> Em pent, the sound gets more into the upper extensions.
2. All work over the I chord.
Am pent over C (6/9 sound)
Em pent over C (Maj13 sound)
Dm pent over C (Csus sound -- note the sus4)
Again, ordered from most vanilla to most strawberry
Plus! Bm pent over C (lydian sound)
3.Over G7 the one that's the most fun is
Bbm pent over G7 (altered sound)
Another would be Abm6 pent over G7 (Ab B Db Eb *F*) -- another altered sound.
Don't forget there are many (hundreds?) different kinds of pentatonic scales.
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I disagree. The OP thought the intervals were 'fixed'. The example I gave shows how the same scale changes intervals based on the chord it's being played over. Changing the keys of the scales just seems to over complicate things, IMO.
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Ah, well, different strokes. Originally Posted by Dana
Another dominant example is to take the F#m pent and drop the F# to Fnat (Fnat A B C# E) over a G7 (lydian dominant sound). No idear what to call that scale.
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Yes, and I find it even easier to explain by simply suggesting that for a major chord (ma7, 6th, 6/9 etc) use the major pent based on the root and one based on the 5th. Same for the Minor 7th - minor pent based on the root and again from the 5th. For Dominant it's a Dom9 arp (pent) and for alt move it up a TT. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
It gets way more complicated if you want to go there, see Ramon Ricker ...
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I find my students have an easier time if they don’t have to transpose the scales while at the same time trying to determine the intervals in relation to the chords. Why add another level of complexity. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
Not sure how this answers the OP’s question. He’s obviously still struggling to learn the basic minor pentatonic and it’s uses over different chords. I don't see how altering the intervals helps, IMO. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
Lydian b7 Pentatonic. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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Here's a link to A minor pentatonics, hope it helps. I use them quite a bit over blues, there's all kinds of backing tracks on youtube, here's one below! They're great to use as you can play notes of the pentatonic scale throughout the whole track. I think most guitar players start out with pentatonics at some point!
http://www.paultauterouff.com/Lessons/minpent.pdf
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Just to make sure we are actually addressing OP question, which is maybe way more simple that some people interpreted.
@same: I think that in that exercise, you are supposed to improvise using the two shapes of the Dm pentatonic all over the tune. That means that you do not have to change scale, or think in terms of modes of that scale. You simply need to phrase using the two shapes you learned over the whole tune. Clearly, since the tune is composed of different chords, the notes of the scale will feel different according to which chord is in the background.
As a more advanced exercise, you can practice the enclosure (or the other pattern to create tension) over dominant chords like A7-alt, and then try to resolve tension when you get to Dm7.
Ll.
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Vic gives his spin.
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Love this thread. Just had this topic (re)explained to me as I sort of knew of it but not really how to use it. Plenty to work on but it's ear work for me mainly...important not to go bending lots of blues lines over the ii-V-I to get it sounding decent, and to transition/resolve appropriately, The PDF from Dana and that Vic Juris video shining some light on this for me - thanks all. My new year's resolution is to slow down and learn stuff deeply so as to nail things in my aging brain and fingers rather than trying too hard to fake "progress".
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I think what you might be looking for is the concept I call "shifty"... maybe someone can identify the canonical theory concept name for this?
The get the idea, start with shifty triads.
Example, C major - C E G as in x x 10 9 8 x
If you play that while the bass plays an A underneath, that triad has shifted from being C major to A m7. If the bass plays a D under it shifts to D11... same collection of pitches takes different harmonic roles.
Shifty pents can do a similar kind of thing, except instead of holding place like the triad and shifting the harmonic context around it, you can shift the pent pattern itself - in this example it moves in contrary motion to the chords.
Example, for a ii-V(biialt)-I-VI like Ebm7 D9b5 Db69 Bb(13), play major pents Db, D, Eb, and E (descending sounds good with these).
Ebm7 (11 x 11 11 11 11) play Db major pent (Db Bb Ab F Eb Db)
D9b5 (10 x 10 9 9 x) play D maj pent (D B A Gb E D)
Db69 (9 x 8 8 9 x) play Eb maj pent (Eb C Bb G F Eb)
Bb(13) (6 x 6 7 8 x) play E maj pent (E Db B Ab Gb E)
Mechanically, the major pent pattern is just being shifted up chromatically, but harmonically these pitches are expressing altered notes of those chords with just a very light "outside" type of sound.
Like the shifty triad, where you can't really think of the triad as being "major" when the bass and harmonic context has shifted, the "major pent" patterns may also likely become something else when shifted.
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I use 2 Pentatonic patterns, which means I use 10 patterns, right. Pentatonics have 5 notes... two patterns with 5 versions of each makes 10.
One you have these simple patterns together.... you can move them around to work with other chord references.
I'm posting with G min being the starting note or degree.... just because they fit easily on fretboard diagrams.
I also use a few other relationships , harmonic relationships...
The first example is Gmin... (Aeolian) and Bbmaj. (Ionian). This relationship is very standard Maj. and Min. Relative Functional harmony. Think Cmaj7 and it's relative Minor... Amin7. And you can flip the relationship around.... Amin7 and it's Relative Maj7... Cmaj7. But I changed to Bbmaj and Gmin so the examples fit on the guitar fretboard.
Anyway the 2nd example used Gmin (Dorian) and Bbmaj (Lydian). This is the same functional harmony ...relative relationships. But now using Dorian Minor. as the Relative Min of Bbmaj. Lydian.
It's a Modal thing.... don't worry about it. (if you want more, I have all the info.)
The advantage of G Dorian is that It also work great with Melodic Min. there's more... but who cares... Here are the two examples.
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Can you please expand on this a little. When you say you use Lydian to Dorian Relative relationship as compared to Ionian and aeolian... are you using in a camouflaged application still using functional harmony or changing the functional organization?
I understand the standard relative Major and minor relationship with Aeolian using Ionian functional organization etc.
So when you use this modal relative relationship.. are you implying the use of using Lydian functional organization for Lydian and then Dorian functional organization and then creating relationships between the two by using Each becoming target references?
Hope makes sense. Thanks
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Hey Sam... Don't know the "30 days to better jazz guitar", but the basic concept of using pentatonic pattern your using is that, Originally Posted by same
-Over Min7th chords the notes are there... R-m3-4-5-m7.
-Over Maj7th chords the m3rd and m7th can become Blue Notes, which are very characteristic with Jazz Blues sound and feel.
-Over Dom7th chords the -3 can also become a Blue Note etc..
This approach doesn't work in all chord contexts. Generally you would use the Pentatomic pattern from the Target Chord of series of chords.
If you post the tune version of Summertime... from your example, I'll explain how it can work in that tune or context.
Just a note.... this approach to playing requires somewhat rhythmically organized use of Pentatonic scales. You need to have Target notes from the pentatonic scale that need to have attack points...
Your using specific notes from the scale over each chord and using the patter of the pentatonic scale as a single reference, Somewhat like combining different chords with organization. And generally the Blue notes, b3 and b7 help create that blues or jazz blues harmonic reference.
There is a lot of BS to this organization... sounds like your not really ready to get that technical. But If you want... I'll break it down, I understand most of this BS.
Most just use trial and error approach and practice and play until they like the results.
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Hey Brook... Originally Posted by Brook953
yes....
Functional harmony...
Cmaj.(Imaj) the relative Min is Amin (VI-)... they're both Tonic, right. The relative Min of Cmaj is
Amin. And the relative Maj of Amin. is Cmaj.
Functional harmony starts with and relates everything to Ionian. Maj.
If I use the same Diatonic functional organization....and expand through Modal concepts.
I change Imaj Ionian to Imaj Lydian. Cma7 Ionian becomes Cma7 Lydian.
The relative Min of Cma7(lydian) is Amin7 (dorian). and,
The Relative Maj of Amin7 (dorian) is Cma7 (lydian).
Relative and Borrowing approaches are just mechanical harmonic devices that work within collections of notes and diatonic chords created from those notes.
Just a note... the Dorian Pentatonic is really just what many call the relative Mixolydian Pentatonic.
Gmin pentatonic G Bb C D E R-b3-4-5-6 (G-7) is the related II-7 of C7 which has the dominant pentatonic pattern of C D E G Bb ...R-2-3-5-b7 (C7).
And then when to apply the organization to MM... your get G-ma7 to C7#11....
Anyway... you could use in a camouflaged approach if you want to keep Ionian functional harmony as reference. Or use as Functional with Lydian organization concepts.... or keep them both going on and have a few layers etc.... usually the latter with more etc...Last edited by Reg; 01-28-2020 at 10:25 AM.
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Ok cool. Thanks for response.
So you expand functional harmony by using modal references and also have access to the each modes own functional organization.
So functional harmony is always going on as starting reference and the modal functional organization can also be going on as secondary layer?
Sorry if not being clear i think I understand what you mean though.
Cheers
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Haha m6 pentatonics. You are such a dwps player Reg lol.
yeah that’s a dead handy shape. You hear Django use it all the time.
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Yea... I've been called worse...LOL.
I'm fairly sure the Op is a beginner And I don't really know how to give info for beginners. But I did want to at least give him some approaches from the dark side. How to trash everything you learned in 30 days to become a jazz guitar player...
Yea back in the 60's and 70's....(even early 80's), we use to turn up and play warp speed, blazing shred pentatonics. There are obviously a few more options, but while we were melting picks and burnin the frets away... we still had very organized approaches... even if they were a stretch, we still had very harmonic organization, pretty simple Functional Relationships. Somewhat like you were getting into on you vid. with chord sub relationships... just also have all the chords be within a functional organization and having all the notes involved, even if just implied.
And of course.... we could just get mechanical, or physical ... and really get POP. Yea I'm going nowhere... Liked the Delay. Nice to hear and see you again. Ciao
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"dwps" ????? Don't worry play Slow? Dorian with Pentatonic shapes ???? inquiring minds Originally Posted by christianm77
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