the B note in autumn leaves intro. Cannonball & Miles Davis

**basinstreet** · 01-10-2020, 09:27 AM

Hi

I have a question regarding the intro of this tune. There is a kind of minor vamp into in what I thought was G minor. Kind of minor 6 sound with the bass line playing 1, min3, 5 ,6 , min3 , 1 (in G)

Are my ears right in hearing the horn comping (the du du dahs) at 0.30 seconds playing an A to B ? like A B B ? If so how is that being played over Gminor? Is it hinting at a dominant sound briefly? Or do i need to work on my ears more

Only way i can get to a B is very obscure way of thinking - G dorian = F major. A flat C in Fmajor would be B ? clearly im a bit lost

thanks

**Jonah** · 01-10-2020, 09:55 AM

Yes I hear major 3rd there. and the vamp is G Dorian..
I do not think any explanation needed here...

It is ust a jump from minor 3rd to major 3rd.

I always hear these kind of unprepared jumps from min to maj 3rd jumps as very expressive expansion of harmonic texture.
It brings in a feeling of force implied.

(It was used in classical music too, Schubert used it with teh same meaning.... it sounds almost scary when he does it).

The oppsite thing is also possible... it brings in the feeling of sudden softness, modesty ... remember the beginning of Moonlight sonata - it is going to E major key and then suddenky he just shifts to minor 3rd with no preparation... I always feel it as if someone goes straight and suddenly puts his eyes down...

**basinstreet** · 01-10-2020, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Jonah

Yes I hear major 3rd there. and the vamp is G Dorian..
I do not think any explanation needed here...

It is just a jump from minor 3rd to major 3rd.

I always hear these kind of unprepared jumps from min to maj 3rd jumps as very expressive expansion of harmonic texture.
It brings in a feeling of force implied.

(It was used in classical music too, Schubert used it with teh same meaning.... it sounds almost scary when he does it).

The oppsite thing is also possible... it brings in the feeling of sudden softness, modesty ... remember the beginning of Moonlight sonata - it is going to E major key and then suddenky he just shifts to minor 3rd with no preparation... I always feel it as if someone goes straight and suddenly puts his eyes down...

ok thanks for the reply, things are usually simple aren't they? so the vamp sets up a sort of contextless, any colour scenario?

Guess its better that i was right in noticing it, rather than my attempt to theorise whats going on . another sound to try and get into the ears

I keep coming back to this recording - its ace. Miles was very flippant about this particular session in his autobiography too

**grahambop** · 01-10-2020, 11:56 AM

It’s a bit like the vamp McCoy Tyner played for Coltrane on My Favourite Things, he played the minor 9 chord then the same chord a whole tone up.

So in Gminor you would play Gmin9 alternating with Amin9.

Which means on the second chord there is a B. It’s a cool sound, it sounds good, you don’t have to worry about any theoretical justification for it (in my opinion!).

You will hear it used quite a lot in minor key modal jazz tunes.

**basinstreet** · 01-10-2020, 12:41 PM

ok cool yeah like in so what

dont know why i didnt think of that too

**ragman1** · 01-10-2020, 12:52 PM

They're not playing a B. The bass line goes G Bb D E D.

The horns go (Bb D) (C E) (D F) (F A) and back down again.

As Graham said, it's a well known vamp. Try playing Am, Bm, C, Bm, keeping the bass A going underneath. It's the same thing. Some people use it for Summertime.

**grahambop** · 01-10-2020, 12:53 PM

Like this:

**Jonah** · 01-10-2020, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

They're not playing a B. The bass line goes G Bb D E D.

The horns go (Bb D) (C E) (D F) (F A) and back down again.

As Graham said, it's a well known vamp. Try playing Am, Bm, C, Bm, keeping the bass A going underneath. It's the same thing. Some people use it for Summertime.

They do play B natural but it is a bit later than you go with your record, it is at approx 0:30 of original track

**grahambop** · 01-10-2020, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

They're not playing a B. The bass line goes G Bb D E D.

The horns go (Bb D) (C E) (D F) (F A) and back down again.

I don’t think the OP means that vamp. He means when Miles plays the first couple of high notes on the trumpet with the Harmon mute, at 28 seconds. Actually I think Miles overblew and by mistake played a B instead of an A. He doesn’t do it on the repeats.

But it still sounds kind of cool and has become part of the sound of this famous performance anyway.

In any case, the minor vamp with a 9 going up to a maj3 sounds good when someone like McCoy Tyner does it!

**ragman1** · 01-10-2020, 01:05 PM

Doc Watson's Summertime in Em.

**grahambop** · 01-10-2020, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Doc Watson's Summertime in Em.

That’s very nice, but it’s not what we’re talking about. See previous posts!

**Jonah** · 01-10-2020, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by basinstreet

ok thanks for the reply, things are usually simple aren't they? so the vamp sets up a sort of contextless, any colour scenario?

Guess its better that i was right in noticing it, rather than my attempt to theorise whats going on . another sound to try and get into the ears

I keep coming back to this recording - its ace. Miles was very flippant about this particular session in his autobiography too

It seems I can sing along with this record.. I remember it so well.

I like graham's practical explanation - that it could be derived from two parallel minor 9 chords... i did not think about it in My Favourite THings is more clear

...though in this particular case with Autumn Leaves I still hear mostly as if it is min3rd and maj3rd

**grahambop** · 01-10-2020, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by Jonah

It seems I can sing along with this record.. I remember it so well.

I like graham's practical explanation - that it could be derived from two parallel minor 9 chords... i did not think about it in My Favourite THings is more clear

...though in this particular case with Autumn Leaves I still hear mostly as if it is min3rd and maj3rd

yes and in Autumn Leaves, it was probably a mistake by Miles Davis! But a good one.

Like Miles said, there are no mistakes!

**ragman1** · 01-10-2020, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

I don’t think the OP means that vamp. He means when Miles plays the first couple of high notes on the trumpet with the Harmon mute, at 28 seconds. Actually I think Miles overblew and by mistake played a B instead of an A. He doesn’t do it on the repeats.

But it still sounds kind of cool and has become part of the sound of this famous performance anyway.

In any case, the minor vamp with a 9 going up to a maj3 sounds good when someone like McCoy Tyner does it!

Right, sorry. The OP did say 30 secs, etc. My fault. Sure, the B sounds okay. Well, it would :-)

Thanks.

**Jonah** · 01-10-2020, 01:12 PM

Actually I think Miles overblew and by mistake played a B instead of an A. He doesn’t do it on the repeats.

Haha)))

Maybe... but actually I do not think it is possible to overblow it like that on trumpet - just technically. I played trombone and some trumpet in the army band. B and A have quite distinct fingering - if you take a wrong fingering with intention to play another note - your embouchure most probably will not laet you do that - it will be moaning... though many years passed - maybe I am wrong...

Besides I think he really wanted to push it outside and then back.. a bit of what I described in my first answer

**ragman1** · 01-10-2020, 01:15 PM

overblew

Yes, sounds like he tweaked it a bit by accident. No blood on the floor, tho'

**grahambop** · 01-10-2020, 01:21 PM

Well I know nothing about trumpet, but it just sounded like he was meant to play an A all times, it sounds like an arrangement.

Miles was notorious for playing the odd wrong or ‘cracked’ note, it became part of his style in a way.

**basinstreet** · 01-10-2020, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

They're not playing a B. The bass line goes G Bb D E D.

The horns go (Bb D) (C E) (D F) (F A) and back down again.

As Graham said, it's a well known vamp. Try playing Am, Bm, C, Bm, keeping the bass A going underneath. It's the same thing. Some people use it for Summertime.

yup i believe the first part of your post has been cleared up . thanks for the second bit though. I wont read it, then i'll have a go at figuring out the chords, and come back and see if i've got them right and they match up with yours

**ragman1** · 01-10-2020, 01:45 PM

Thanks, basinstreet.

It's only a vamp. You're probably better off ignoring me altogether, I'm obviously having a bad vamp day :-)

**ragman1** · 01-10-2020, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Miles was notorious for playing the odd wrong or ‘cracked’ note, it became part of his style in a way.

I'm going to take that up, I could get famous!

krunch

**KirkP** · 01-10-2020, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Actually I think Miles overblew and by mistake played a B instead of an A. He doesn’t do it on the repeats.

I’ve always assumed it was a sloppy Bb that went sharp. I don’t think it got quite as sharp as a B. It sounds like crap to me, but I think Miles kept that take because the rest was so good—and being Miles he could get away with it. But I’d never intentionally play it that way. I make enough mistakes on my own and feel no need to replicate his.

**ragman1** · 01-10-2020, 03:05 PM

Actually... it's not unheard of to put the maj 3rd into a minor sound. It can work providing one's brazen about it.

(I don't think Miles did it deliberately, though)

**KirkP** · 01-10-2020, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Actually... it's not unheard of to put the maj 3rd into a minor sound. It can work providing one's brazen about it.

(I don't think Miles did it deliberately, though)

A min 3rd (#9) over a dominant chord works of course. But my ear won’t accept a maj 3rd over a min 6 arpeggio as is the case here. At least not for long. If the maj 3rd is a chromatic approach to min 3rd I’m fine.