What is a "phantom V chord"?

[buduranus2]

Have seen some references here but can't find an explanation online.

[pauln]

Maybe it's the implied V chord that is not played or heard when you play the tri-tone substitution of that V?

Cm7 - F9 - Bb(69) 8x8888 - x87888 - 6x556x has the F as the V chord of Bb

Cm7 - B7b9b5 - Bb(69) 8x8888 - 7x766x - 6x556x has the B chord as the tri-tone sub, but you can still hear the "2-5-1'ness" even though the F chord V is replaced with the B chord bII.

[buduranus2]

Maybe it's the implied V chord that is not played or heard when you play the tri-tone substitution of that V?

Cm7 - F9 - Bb(69) 8x8888 - x87888 - 6x556x has the F as the V chord of Bb

Cm7 - B7b9b5 - Bb(69) 8x8888 - 7x766x - 6x556x has the B chord as the tri-tone sub, but you can still hear the "2-5-1'ness" even though the F chord V is replaced with the B chord bII.

So a false cadence?

[pauln]

I don't think so; a deceptive cadence is when the dominant resolves to something other than the tonic. What is happening with the phantom V (I think) is that the V is missing but you still "kind of hear it" because the tri-tone sub that replaces it is derived from the V... it sounds enough like the V function is there that you could solo as if it were there. In this case the resolution is through either the tri-tone or the phantom dominant, to the tonic.

However, if the resolution was through the phantom dominant but to something other than the tonic, then I guess that change would need a name in music theory... maybe a Latin name? Exspiravit fallax

[christianm77]

Who knows? There’s not a lot of terminological consistency in jazz haha. Maybe if we knew the source of the term?

[mr. beaumont]

[grahambop]

[buduranus2]

Who knows? There’s not a lot of terminological consistency in jazz haha. Maybe if we knew the source of the term?

Ummm, you.

Yes, of course. There's so many possibilities by using 'phantom V.'

Of course it's possible that your interpretation is how was thinking, but the whole tone scale had been pretty mainstream in jazz for a few decades by this point and I tend to think whole tone because of the influence of Barry Harris who himself was influenced by Bud Powell and Monk who used it heavily. Whole Tone scales with chromatic neighbours are part of the material us Barry-ites are meant to practice (looks shifty.)

To me Bb aug + C aug = wholetone. The whole tone scale includes the tritone sub 7#5 chords among others.

In any case this is a lick that is used practically verbatim in Wes's solos of this era.

Anyway, so called Reg Minor (it's such a pain in the arse that there is no short standardised name for simply playing the notes from the minor key over the dominant chord of that key) is for me always going to be the default interpretation because it's pretty much the most diatonic and I tend to always go to diatonic as a default in my own changes playing.

Taking a key centric analysis this line (Db, C, Bb, Ab, E, Eb) has only one accidental when compared to F natural minor (F G Ab Bb C Db Eb) which is the E. This is the same accidental (natural 7 of the key) that pops up again and again in bop lines often with the b7 as well... Eb against C7 is pretty common, for instance.

Very often you have the descending S T S tetrachord E Eb Db C or 7 b7 b6 5. It's a real bop cliche.

I have no idea how they were thinking of this as it fits so many different interpretations. But it's not that far away from the prevailing key. That said running 7 b7 in a row does seem a slightly odd thing to do if you are thinking diatonically. I don't think it's something you'd find in say, Bach, but I might be wrong.

The use of the b2 melodically as enclosure also pops up and then that pushes you more towards the tritone sound unambiguously (and Berklee-ites would say 'altered scale' and others might say 'H-W dim')

The context was whole tone on minor. I'm working on Caravan at the moment. The C7(b9) seems kind of augmented. So, in my limited way of thinking, augmented suggests, among other possibilities, whole tones. But how is C7 anything a "phantom" V of F ? Still unclear on the concept.

[christianm77]

Holy shit, I must have been on the sauce. I have no idea what 'Phantom V' means.

Also I have literally no idea what I was talking about back then.

I don't think anyone else uses that term.

[christianm77]

The context was whole tone on minor. I'm working on Caravan at the moment. The C7(b9) seems kind of augmented. So, in my limited way of thinking, augmented suggests, among other possibilities, whole tones.

So what I would say now is... OK what style are you playing in, who do you like, who are you playing with and what's the vibe?

I mean Wes liked to play Mixolydian sounds on the C7 in Caravan, so he clearly didn't think of the b9 and #5 being a thing unless he decided they were.

C7b9 is more of a F harmonic minor scale. I use the term Reg Minor, which is a mixed scale of F natural and harmonic minor

F G Ab Bb C Db Eb E

Which can give you a C7b9#9b13 sound, but with a regular fifth unlike the altered scale. The F harmonic minor has that 'gypsy sound' so ... gypsy.. caravan? I don't know. Vibe, right?

That's the most obvious choice to my ears, but you could also use like... well altered, whole tone, diminished half-whole.

(Sometimes I use C Db E F G Ab B just cos it sounds more Gypsy, and screw the major 7th ... Hijaz Kar, Double Harmonic Minor... Gets called different things.. . it's a problematic cultural appropriation vibe special effect..... Doesn't have to be harmonic...)

But this way of thinking is kind of stupid and annoying to me because it's all just options. If you can already play jazz, fantastic, but if you can't, it's not going to help. Scales can give you a vibe, sure.. maybe they can get you cancelled for musical racism (pentatonics in parallel fourths? Can't get away with that any more. Flipping PC brigade.)

But the actual vocabulary of your playing is something else... Where are you at with your playing?

And it's when you can hear what your favourite people do.... Until then it's all Dungeons and Dragons Manual stuff...

[christianm77]

Ye gods.... I'm turning into Reg... blue notes... harmonic references.... and all that BS... just have to get your technical skills together....

[A. Kingstone]

Any dominant played on this......

[buduranus2]

So what I would say now is... OK what style are you playing in, who do you like, who are you playing with and what's the vibe?

I mean Wes liked to play Mixolydian sounds on the C7 in Caravan, so he clearly didn't think of the b9 and #5 being a thing unless he decided they were.

C7b9 is more of a F harmonic minor scale. I use the term Reg Minor, which is a mixed scale of F natural and harmonic minor

F G Ab Bb C Db Eb E

Which can give you a C7b9#9b13 sound, but with a regular fifth unlike the altered scale. The F harmonic minor has that 'gypsy sound' so ... gypsy.. caravan? I don't know. Vibe, right?

(Sometimes I use C Db E F G Ab B just cos it sounds more Gypsy, and screw the major 7th ... Hijaz Kar, Double Harmoni Minor... Gets called different things.. .it's a problematic cultural appropriation vibe special effect..... Doesn't have to be harmonic...)

That's the most obvious choice to my ears, but you could also use like... well altered, whole tone, diminished half-whole.

But this way of thinking is kind of stupid and annoying to me because it's all just options. If you can already play jazz, fantastic, but if you can't, it's not going to help. You need to decide who you want to check out and start learning their phrases, and working out what they do...

Until then it's all Dungeons and Dragons Manual stuff...

I'm using F harmonic minor and C altered. H/W diminished sounds a little off to me because I'm really hearing the C7 as C7#5b9 (What you perhaps more correctly call C7b9#9b13.) So the natural 6th in H/W diminished seems out of place. Of course if I just treat it as C7b9 then it's fine. I think I'm approaching it as a cross between Gypsy jazz (A section) and blues (aka rhythm changes) in the B section. It goes by at a pretty good clip, so if I can make the tempo and keep it somewhat coherent I'm calling it good – for now, anyway.

[pauln]

I'm using F harmonic minor and C altered. H/W diminished sounds a little off to me because I'm really hearing the C7 as C7#5b9 (What you perhaps more correctly call C7b9#9b13.) So the natural 6th in H/W diminished seems out of place. Of course if I just treat it as C7b9 then it's fine. I think I'm approaching it as a cross between Gypsy jazz (A section) and blues (aka rhythm changes) in the B section. It goes by at a pretty good clip, so if I can make the tempo and keep it somewhat coherent I'm calling it good – for now, anyway.

There's a lot of freedom to play things in the C - F section.

During both the C and F chords, I hear

W/H diminished lines rooted from E, G, Bb, and Db

Lydian Dominant lines rooted from Eb, E, Gb, Ab, Bb, B, and Db

(the Gb LD, very similar to Caug, is especially good leading from the C chord into the F chord).
I also hear Fminmaj79 for the F chord (but that is out of character with the imagery of the tune).

Play C major - C E G C (sounds major)
Play C major with chromatic slips or trills from below - Cb->C Eb->E Gb->G Cb->C (sounds major)
Play C major with chromatic slips or trills from above - Db->C F->E Ab->G Db->C (sounds minor)

Now play both above as encapsulations starting on the chord tone and moving to the upper and lower chromatic tone in either order, or starting with either the upper or lower tone and including passing through the chord tone... in all these cases the sound is minor (the upper tones are stronger than the lower tones). The C-F part of Caravan is playing with this stuff to repress the "V'ness" sound of the C chord until the last second when the descending chromatic line towards the F chord reveals the resolution.

May that's a kind of phantom V? Repressed V, delayed V, surprise V, Spanish Inquisition V (unexpected).

[buduranus2]

There's a lot of freedom to play things in the C - F section.

During both the C and F chords, I hear

W/H diminished lines rooted from E, G, Bb, and Db

Lydian Dominant lines rooted from Eb, E, Gb, Ab, Bb, B, and Db

(the Gb LD, very similar to Caug, is especially good leading from the C chord into the F chord).
I also hear Fminmaj79 for the F chord (but that is out of character with the imagery of the tune).

Play C major - C E G C (sounds major)
Play C major with chromatic slips or trills from below - Cb->C Eb->E Gb->G Cb->C (sounds major)
Play C major with chromatic slips or trills from above - Db->C F->E Ab->G Db->C (sounds minor)

Now play both above as encapsulations starting on the chord tone and moving to the upper and lower chromatic tone in either order, or starting with either the upper or lower tone and including passing through the chord tone... in all these cases the sound is minor (the upper tones are stronger than the lower tones). The C-F part of Caravan is playing with this stuff to repress the "V'ness" sound of the C chord until the last second when the descending chromatic line towards the F chord reveals the resolution.

May that's a kind of phantom V? Repressed V, delayed V, surprise V, Spanish Inquisition V (unexpected).

Yes, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. That aside, I'm also hearing the Fminmaj7. Seems in keeping with the "exotic" vibe of the tune. Your encapsulation suggestion is very helpful. In the context of the tune it's very "pre-bop," so, to my hearing anyway, more in the realm of Gypsy jazz. More generally, it's a technique I could get a lot of mileage out of. Never really worked that into the mix for some reason. Appreciate you!

[fep]

Ummm, you.

That's good.

[cosmic gumbo]

[christianm77]

I'm using F harmonic minor and C altered. H/W diminished sounds a little off to me because I'm really hearing the C7 as C7#5b9 (What you perhaps more correctly call C7b9#9b13.) So the natural 6th in H/W diminished seems out of place. Of course if I just treat it as C7b9 then it's fine. I think I'm approaching it as a cross between Gypsy jazz (A section) and blues (aka rhythm changes) in the B section. It goes by at a pretty good clip, so if I can make the tempo and keep it somewhat coherent I'm calling it good – for now, anyway.

I don't really care about any of that. Who do you listen to? What players? Who do you like?

I mean it all sounds good, there's specific ways of dealing with that sort of situation harmonically, but... well, yeah. Never mind.

[buduranus2]

I don't really care about any of that. Who do you listen to? What players? Who do you like? I mean it all sounds good, there's specific ways of dealing with that sort of situation harmonically, but... well, yeah. Never mind.

I'm a CST guy. By that I mean to say that CST helps me find and execute note sequences that sound like "jazz." I think the reason I can use CST to parse out options in a given harmonic situation is that, most fundamentally, I'm a blues player. Blues has its own conventions and "emotional logic." It's deceptively difficult to do. So, from my perspective, I treat a standard like Have You Met Miss Jones as a blues. It's all turnarounds to me. St. Thomas too. Blues lines are the strongest, and CST allows me to embellish blues lines with many of the elements that we call "jazz." Among these are adding elements of chromaticism to create forward motion. CST allows me to incorporate those elements in a coherent, logical way. But, again, I'm always playing "the blues" in terms of tonality, phrasing and swing. So that's why my use of CST doesn't sound sterile or pedantic. Just tools in the toolbox. BTW let me dispel any misconception that CST is a "method" for improvisation. It's just one way to a destination.

As for who I listen to: Dexter Gordon, Trane, Paul Desmond, Sonny Criss, Sonny Stitt, Sonny Rollins, Ben Webster, Coleman Hawkins, Gene Ammons, Willis Jackson, Hank Mobley, Stanley Turrentine, Zoot Sims, Junior Cook, Booker Ervin, Art Pepper, Chet Baker, Woody Shaw, Clifford Brown, Miles, Freddie Hubbard, Booker Little, Blue Mitchell etc. Also piano players: McCoy Tyner, Red Garland, Bud Powell, Monk, Oscar Peterson, Martial Solal, Horace Silver etc. Guitar: Wes, Kenny, Pat Martino, Grant Green, Jim Hall and let us never forget the late great Billy Rogers!

[christianm77]

I'm a CST guy. By that I mean to say that CST helps me find and execute note sequences that sound like "jazz." I think the reason I can use CST to parse out options in a given harmonic situation is that, most fundamentally, I'm a blues player. Blues has its own conventions and "emotional logic." It's deceptively difficult to do. So, from my perspective, I treat a standard like Have You Met Miss Jones as a blues. It's all turnarounds to me. St. Thomas too. Blues lines are the strongest, and CST allows me to embellish blues lines with many of the elements that we call "jazz." Among these are adding elements of chromaticism to create forward motion. CST allows me to incorporate those elements in a coherent, logical way. But, again, I'm always playing "the blues" in terms of tonality, phrasing and swing. So that's why my use of CST doesn't sound sterile or pedantic. Just tools in the toolbox. BTW let me dispel any misconception that CST is a "method" for improvisation. It's just one way to a destination.

As for who I listen to: Dexter Gordon, Trane, Paul Desmond, Sonny Criss, Sonny Stitt, Sonny Rollins, Ben Webster, Coleman Hawkins, Gene Ammons, Willis Jackson, Hank Mobley, Stanley Turrentine, Zoot Sims, Junior Cook, Booker Ervin, Art Pepper, Chet Baker, Woody Shaw, Clifford Brown, Miles, Freddie Hubbard, Booker Little, Blue Mitchell etc. Also piano players: McCoy Tyner, Red Garland, Bud Powell, Monk, Oscar Peterson, Martial Solal, Horace Silver etc. Guitar: Wes, Kenny, Pat Martino, Grant Green, Jim Hall and let us never forget the late great Billy Rogers!

I’ve been reading a stack of papers by jazz educators and academics and they all spend a little time giving cst a bit of a kicking. Which is all good fun, but I think most experienced musicians would say exactly what I’m going to say.

The biggest problem with cst is that it can’t tell you anything about how to improvise, or anything about jazz. What it can do is suggest harmonic options, which is fine, but the harmonic options you’ve described here are.... the basic ones. Which makes me think you are getting the fundamentals together .

so if I’m wrong and you are comfortable playing fluent and authentic sounding jazz vocab, fab, have some fun with my suggestions. If not, spend time digging into the actual music.

Don’t waste your time in this place. Ask those guys in your post what to do.

[buduranus2]

BTW let me dispel any misconception that CST is a "method" for improvisation. It's just one way to a destination.

The biggest problem with cst is that it can’t tell you anything about how to improvise, or anything about jazz. What it can do is suggest harmonic options.

So we're of one accord. Appreciate you as always.