Need help for chords to play behind a riff

**MarkRhodes** · 06-22-2020, 07:15 PM

The video is largely self-explanatory but the two bars in question contain the following notes:

(pick-up notes)A C C# A/ D Ebm7b5 Dm7b5 (pickups to next bar) A C C# /F(ho)F# D (pickups to next bar, a walk-down to Gm7) A Ab G

The two chords snapped here (Ebm7b5 and Dm7b5 are sounded mainly for their top two notes. Their emphasis is melodic.

**pauln** · 06-22-2020, 08:24 PM

What you are calling Ebm7b5 and Dm7b5... would be x6767x -> x5656x where you are playing.

To help find the harmony, try some of these and see if any of them grabs you (may need to play the roots to hear the ones over B and Bb)

x6x77x -> x5x66x are EbmM7 -> DmM7
x67x7x -> x56x6x could be Edim7 -> Ddim7
x6767x -> x5656x could be E half diminished -> D half diminished
x6767x -> x5656x (same as above) could also be B9 -> Bb(9)
x6777x -> x5666x are EbmM7b5 -> DmM7b5
x6776x -> x5665x are F(6)/Eb -> D6/E

The only other thing that comes to mind is that Dmaj7. The tune has a bit of a fusion groove to it. Consider a Dmaj9 there and see what you think - I think because of the way that chord hangs for a bit, the Dmaj9 hangs better... Dmaj9 there is x57655.

**MarkRhodes** · 06-22-2020, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by pauln

The only other thing that comes to mind is that Dmaj7. The tune has a bit of a fusion groove to it. Consider a Dmaj9 there and see what you think - I think because of the way that chord hangs for a bit, the Dmaj9 hangs better... Dmaj9 there is x57655.

Thanks, Paul.
It's funny you say that because when I programmed this into BIAB and wasn't sure what chords to put there, I just put 2 measures of D.(Just D, a triad.) It was okay----better than some other things I tried later---but left me unsatisfied somehow. Maybe making it a DM9 might work much better. I'll try tomorrow.

The guitar lines in this song start on the & of 3, and the notes that fall on beat 1 (for the Dm7 / G7 part are either 5ths (A for Dm7) or roots (G for G7) So the bar in question, it's 1 is a D (-just the note, not a chord) and the 1 for the next measure is an A (note, not chord), the 5th of D, so really, D is the way to go. Makes for a curious chord progression (-at least for me) D- / G7 / D- / G7 / D- / G7 / D- /G7 /Dmaj9 / Dmaj9/ then ii-V-/I-IV in F twice and that C turnaround (E- A7 D- G7) that switches to G- C7-Dmaj7/ Dmaj7. What is that, 17 measures?

**wolflen** · 06-23-2020, 01:28 AM

just from hearing Ebm7b5 and Dm7b5 as ONE chord slide motion more dominant sounding B9 Bb9

sounds like 9th chords in the context of the rest of the progression,,with the punch on the Bb9 a tad of "james brown"

would really have to jam on it a bit to get the intended feel of the entire progression

**MarkRhodes** · 06-23-2020, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by wolflen

just from hearing Ebm7b5 and Dm7b5 as ONE chord slide motion more dominant sounding B9 Bb9

sounds like 9th chords in the context of the rest of the progression,,with the punch on the Bb9 a tad of "james brown"

would really have to jam on it a bit to get the intended feel of the entire progression

Thanks, Wolf.
I think hearing those two chord stabs as a one-chord-slide-motion makes sense. (Sometimes I play that motion as Dmaj7--Dm7b5.)

I love James Brown's music from the '60s and '70s. Jimmy "Chank" Nolen remains one of my favorite guitar players.

This is some funky stuff here:

And my favorite. The guitar part is simple and repetitive yet I never tire of it or wish he would do something else.

**fep** · 06-23-2020, 10:07 AM

I'll be back home later today and have a closer look.

I really think you've crossed yourself up by playing Dm7 over a riff that is clearly (at least to my ears) implying some type of A chord, Am or A dominant. You are playing an A note on the downbeat of the 1st measure and a C note is also being emphasized. Sounds like an A dominant bluesey line to me. Also, a fifth in the bass (A in relation to Dm7), is not convincing harmonically on the downbeat of the one.

Instead of playing Dm7 to G7, I'd play A7 to G7, or better yet, A13 To G13.

Now when you play the next two lines, both of which sound like D dominant to me, you can switch to D and have strong harmonic movement away from the A13 to G13 bit. And it leads well into the F#m7 with some more strong harmonic movement.

**MarkRhodes** · 06-23-2020, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by fep

Instead of playing Dm7 to G7, I'd play A7 to G7, or better yet, A13 To G13.

I don't know, Frank. The Dm7-G7 sounds better to me, especially for the melody line. (The notes are B,C,D, G, and A.)

Tried to record a take on my iPhone with my guitar amp to one side and my BIAB (on my laptop) behind me but the BIAB sound was too faint even at a high volume. (Cheap external laptop speakers from years ago.) So that doesn't work. Well, it didn't work the 2 times I tried it. I may try it again after lunch and put the phone between the laptop speakers....

I'll be glad when I get that digital interface so that I can put BIAB tracks, and my guitar, into Reaper and get a good balance between the two.

**wolflen** · 06-23-2020, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

Thanks, Wolf.
I think hearing those two chord stabs as a one-chord-slide-motion makes sense. (Sometimes I play that motion as Dmaj7--Dm7b5.)

I love James Brown's music from the '60s and '70s. Jimmy "Chank" Nolen remains one of my favorite guitar players.

Mark..

to me.."James Brown" is a style of music on its own..not a variation of "soul/blues/etc"..if you can keep the rhythm and not miss a beat..his band would make a metronome blush

**MarkRhodes** · 06-23-2020, 03:26 PM

Okay, here's a bit of the song with BIAB. My guitar is turned down pretty low so you can hear the BIAB, though it (BIAB) doesn't sound as good as I'd like. (It's playing through cheap old laptop speakers.)

But you can hear how the riff goes with the song. (Or doesn't, if you think think it doesn't.)

The groove is sort of a soul pop thing with organ, which I like. 125 bpm, faster than I play the song when I play it solo. It's a vocal song but I play the melody rather than sing. (You'll thank me later. ;o)

**wolflen** · 06-23-2020, 04:39 PM

ok..yeah now it makes alot more sense..nice tune...and yeah B9 Bb9 slide it is

**fep** · 06-23-2020, 10:04 PM

For giggles, here's what I was thinking. I just did my own bridge. Over the D bit in question, I'm doing D triad to C triad which equals a D11, at least that's my thinking.

**MarkRhodes** · 06-24-2020, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by fep

For giggles, here's what I was thinking. I just did my own bridge. Over the D bit in question, I'm doing D triad to C triad which equals a D11, at least that's my thinking.

That sounds nifty, Frank. Love the drum sounds you get. I really miss having a drum machine.

**fep** · 06-25-2020, 09:55 AM

The Drums in my recording are from EZdrummer. It comes with several kits, and you can mix and match individual drums. For example it has a big lists of snares that you can substitute into the kit. Also, you can by additional kits. I bought the jazz drum kit which is much different sounding than the other kits. It has a low pitched kick drum, and a high pitched tight sounding snare. These kits are recording in famous studio rooms with great mics.

The jazz kit:

**MarkRhodes** · 06-25-2020, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by fep

The Drums in my recording are from EZdrummer. It comes with several kits, and you can mix and match individual drums. For example it has a big lists of snares that you can substitute into the kit. Also, you can by additional kits. I bought the jazz drum kit which is much different sounding than the other kits. It has a low pitched kick drum, and a high pitched tight sounding snare. These kits are recording in famous studio rooms with great mics.

The jazz kit:

As you know, Frank, I downloaded the trial version of that but could never get it to open. As you helped me discover later, I had set the wrong default for opening zip files. I corrected that. Yesterday I downloaded the EZ Drummer free trial but it won't install due to an Error. (I forget the number.) I really would like to try it but for reasons that elude me, I cannot.

Is there another free trial drum machine I could try for beats and such for those songs that don't seem to work out right for me now?
(I don't want to build grooves, I just want to try out riffs and chords against a variety of basic grooves to get a quick sense of what works best.)

**fep** · 06-25-2020, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

As you know, Frank, I downloaded the trial version of that but could never get it to open. As you helped me discover later, I had set the wrong default for opening zip files. I corrected that. Yesterday I downloaded the EZ Drummer free trial but it won't install due to an Error. (I forget the number.) I really would like to try it but for reasons that elude me, I cannot.

Is there another free trial drum machine I could try for beats and such for those songs that don't seem to work out right for me now?
(I don't want to build grooves, I just want to try out riffs and chords against a variety of basic grooves to get a quick sense of what works best.)

EZdrummer has a forum and support, maybe you could resolve whatever the problem is.

There is a free program that works in a similar manner but scaled down compared to EZdrummer.

MT Power Drum Kit AU VST Drums Sampler Plugin Instrument FREE

**MarkRhodes** · 06-26-2020, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by fep

EZdrummer has a forum and support, maybe you could resolve whatever the problem is.

There is a free program that works in a similar manner but scaled down compared to EZdrummer.

MT Power Drum Kit AU VST Drums Sampler Plugin Instrument FREE

Thanks, Frank.
I may be facing a similar problem here. This wants me to copy certain files to a VST plugins folder. I have no idea what or where that is.
It sounds like this needs to be plugged into a DAW, not just downloaded onto a PC.
Am I missing something? (It's quite likely.)

**AlsoRan** · 06-26-2020, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by fep

The Drums in my recording are from EZdrummer. It comes with several kits, and you can mix and match individual drums. For example it has a big lists of snares that you can substitute into the kit. Also, you can by additional kits. I bought the jazz drum kit which is much different sounding than the other kits. It has a low pitched kick drum, and a high pitched tight sounding snare. These kits are recording in famous studio rooms with great mics.

The jazz kit:

Frank,
Please tell me you did not create that from scratch. I am assuming that you choose a beat from the many styles and then modified the kit.

If you created that beat from scratch, then I am missing out on a lot of functionality that this program offers.

**fep** · 06-26-2020, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

Thanks, Frank.
I may be facing a similar problem here. This wants me to copy certain files to a VST plugins folder. I have no idea what or where that is.
It sounds like this needs to be plugged into a DAW, not just downloaded onto a PC.
Am I missing something? (It's quite likely.)

I believe that program needs to function inside a DAW. You have VST folders on your computer, that is where Reaper places all the plugins. I can help you with that.

**MarkRhodes** · 06-26-2020, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by fep

I believe that program needs to function inside a DAW. You have VST folders on your computer, that is where Reaper places all the plugins. I can help you with that.

Okay. Should we wait until I get that digital interface? Still waiting for that...

**fep** · 06-26-2020, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

Frank,
Please tell me you did not create that from scratch. I am assuming that you choose a beat from the many styles and then modified the kit.

If you created that beat from scratch, then I am missing out on a lot of functionality that this program offers.

Nope, I only spent a minute on the drums for that recording. Selected a groove from Urban jazz, actually the first one I auditioned. It was an 8 bar groove, I just copied and pasted it across the EZDrummer timeline. Maybe it took me twice that time, 2 minutes.

But regarding functionality, you can create grooves from scratch in EZDrummer, either with a midi controller (I use a Korg Pad Control), or with mouse clicks into the midi editor. But the Drum midi that is supplied by EZDrummer is played by professional drummers and they are not quantized. I'm not going to create better feeling grooves than that.

Also, you can copy individual drum parts and paste then into other parts. For instance, you can copy the hi-hat only part from one groove and paste into a different groove creating an additional groove. And any grooves you create on your own you can save in the User Library folder.

I mainly use the Korg Pad Control to use the "tap to find" function in EZDrummer. I'll play in a kick, snare, hi-hat pattern and then let EZDrummer provide a list of patterns that match my pattern. I'll then audition those and select the best fit and then build the drum track from there.

**fep** · 06-26-2020, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

Okay. Should we wait until I get that digital interface? Still waiting for that...

Yep, that's probably best.

**AlsoRan** · 06-26-2020, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by fep

I mainly use the Korg Pad Control to use the "tap to find" function in EZDrummer. I'll play in a kick, snare, hi-hat pattern and then let EZDrummer provide a list of patterns that match my pattern. I'll then audition those and select the best fit and then build the drum track from there.

Thanks for the thoughtful and complete reply. I use EZDrummer2 the same way to find particular group of drum samples, such as "Messy Rock." I then build the drum track choosing various verses and fills.

As a sidenote, I order Superior Drummer a few years ago when it was on sale. I never figured out how to use it or how it is truly supposed to be used beyond getting a Midi-keyboard or electronic drumset and letting it make the sounds. But that is another matter. I brought this up to say that I got a bunch of drum samples with it that the EZDrummer2 program can use in its library. They have covered just about every type of song I want to play.

**AlsoRan** · 06-26-2020, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

As you know, Frank, I downloaded the trial version of that but could never get it to open. As you helped me discover later, I had set the wrong default for opening zip files. I corrected that. Yesterday I downloaded the EZ Drummer free trial but it won't install due to an Error. (I forget the number.) I really would like to try it but for reasons that elude me, I cannot.

Is there another free trial drum machine I could try for beats and such for those songs that don't seem to work out right for me now?
(I don't want to build grooves, I just want to try out riffs and chords against a variety of basic grooves to get a quick sense of what works best.)

I wish I could help you, Mark. when I downloaded it the first time, I installed the Toontrack downloader program that comes with it and let it do the downloading. The second time I did not use it, and on that computer, I had to delete everything and reinstall, using the downloader.

Forgive my limited skills, but I think the using the downloader ensures the files are put into the correct folder in the computer's program files. Once I did that, everything worked fine.

Finally, the cookies on your computer might be still active and telling Toontrack that you already downloaded and used up a free trial in the recent past. So it may not let you have another shot without clearing cookies.

**MarkRhodes** · 06-29-2020, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by fep

Yep, that's probably best.

The order is still processing. Has been since 5/29.
In the meantime, I'm working on new things, so that's a plus.

**MarkRhodes** · 06-29-2020, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

I wish I could help you, Mark. when I downloaded it the first time, I installed the Toontrack downloader program that comes with it and let it do the downloading. The second time I did not use it, and on that computer, I had to delete everything and reinstall, using the downloader.

Might work. Worth another try, at least. Thanks for the suggestion!