Minor i vi ii V question

[princeplanet]

.. actually 2 questions. When the progression is, say, Am, F(X), Bm7b5, E7b9 :

What do you think is most common for the F(X) chord in this progression?

What is your own preference? (include fave subs etc)

Any examples, or mention of tunes would be cool, cheers.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Sub: Bbdim7. You get to be naughty and play a C# (Db). It works because it is a passing chord, of course.

[Laurence Finston]

I - vi - ii - V - I is a very common progression and ii - V - i is also a very common progression (a cadence in a minor key), but I can't think of any songs off-hand with i - VI - ii - V - (i). ii m7 b5 is diatonic to a minor key and for the dominant in a minor key you alway use a maj. 3rd, so V7 (E7 here) and the lowered ninth is also diatonic to the minor key (F with respect to E7 in Am), so if we're sticking to notes in Am, your two choices would be F maj 7 or F maj. 6. However, I don't think this is a common idiom. I may be wrong, though.

A common substitution would be F#7, the dominant of B. In that case, you could use any alteration to increase the amount of tension, e.g., #5, b5, b9 or whatever.

A think a more fruitful approach would be to look at the voice leading, which depends on what voicings you're using.

[setemupjoe]

Good question. Depending on the situation I’ve used one of these:

Am - F#ø - Bø- E7b9

Am - F9 - Bø - E7b9

Am - G7- F7 - E7

[Laurence Finston]

Bb dim. 7 would be like playing F#7, because it is equivalent to F#7 b9 without the root.

[ragman1]

When the progression is, say, Am, F(X), Bm7b5, E7b9 :

What do you think is most common for the F(X) chord in this progression?

There's no confusion over this. It's not a a question of the 'most common' F chord.

The thread title says it's a i VI ii V. In A harmonic minor that's

Am7 FM7 Bm7b5 E7b9

Simple. No subs necessary.

[fat_cat]

In a progression like that its Fmaj7(#11).

You should think all of that as A minor.

Of course there is interchangeability between Am7(b6) and Am7 dorian. But in that case the F is pretty strong, so its pure A minor.

A cool tune that plays with minor/dorian is Wes Montgomery ROAD SONG.

There is a part that goes

Gm7 - Gm/F - Ebmaj7 - Em7b5 - Cm7 - D7b9 - Gm7

[garybaldy]

Lullaby of Birdland is a
i iv7b5 II7 V7

[pauln]

.. actually 2 questions. When the progression is, say, Am, F(X), Bm7b5, E7b9 :

What do you think is most common for the F(X) chord in this progression?

What is your own preference? (include fave subs etc)

Any examples, or mention of tunes would be cool, cheers.

You're playing "Good-bye Pork Pie Hat" wrong...

[pingu]

You're playing "Good-bye Pork Pie Hat" wrong...

doesn’t everyone ?

[pauln]

doesn’t everyone ?

The F chord is really not a mystery.
It presses to be 7th, #11th, or 13th.
However there's more here to hear
A more modern ear might like F69!
If you can finger, F7b11sus4's cool.
Honorable mention look at F6/D#.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Speaking of Mingus...

[Christian Miller]

.. actually 2 questions. When the progression is, say, Am, F(X), Bm7b5, E7b9 :

What do you think is most common for the F(X) chord in this progression?

What is your own preference? (include fave subs etc)

Any examples, or mention of tunes would be cool, cheers.

Most usually F7(#11), Fmaj7/F6 or Dm6/F with the first being the most common, just going from a gut vibe. The chord can resolve directly to Am (or A); the Bm7b5 is kind of extra too.

Bernies Tune is a good one.
Georgia on my Mind b section
It don’t mean a thing (briefly)

Or a minor blues like Equinox

Or the prelude to Tristan und Isolde by Richard Wagner. There you have Am Fm7b5 F7b5 E7#11 E7 which is a hip move (chromatic contrary motion innit)

But there’s loads & loads!

The F7 contains the b5 of the minor key (Eb) a common blue note which makes it a useful chord for jazz and it’s often harmonising this melody note. It’s also very common in classical music.

Playing Fmaj7 F7 E7 Am is big and clever too

[Laurence Finston]

Most usually F7(#11), F6 or Dm6/F with the first being the most common, just going from a gut vibe. The chord can resolve directly to Am (or A); the Bm7b5 is kind of extra too.

Dm is the relative minor of F maj. Dm is the subdominant of Am and by an amazing coincidence, F maj. is the subdominant of C maj., the relative maj. of Am. Dm7 has exactly the same notes as F maj. 6. With all due respect, I disagree that Bm7b5 is extra. The cadence is ii - V - i and Bm7b5 is the ii in Am. By another amazing coincidence, a perfect cadence is subdominant - dominant - tonic and Bm7 b5 has the same notes as Dm6, which has the subdominant function in Am, as stated above.

Or the prelude to Tristan und Isolde by Richard Wagner. There you have Am Fm7b5 F7b5 E7#11 E7 which is a hip move (chromatic contrary motion innit)

Yes, but with Tristan and Isolde, we've left the realm of traditional harmony.

The F7 contains the b5 of the minor key (Eb) a common blue note which makes it a useful chord for jazz. It’s also very common in classical music.

F7 would resolve to Bb. I don't have a clear idea of how the F7 would sound in this context. I'd have to hear it.

[Laurence Finston]

Playing Fmaj7 F7 E7 Am is big and clever too

It's also a nice example for demonstrating voice leading.

[Christian Miller]

Dm is the relative minor of F maj. Dm is the subdominant of Am and by an amazing coincidence, F maj. is the subdominant of C maj., the relative maj. of Am. Dm7 has exactly the same notes as F maj. 6. With all due respect, I disagree that Bm7b5 is extra. The cadence is ii - V - i and Bm7b5 is the ii in Am. By another amazing coincidence, a perfect cadence is subdominant - dominant - tonic and Bm7 b5 has the same notes as Dm6, which has the subdominant function in Am, as stated above.

If you honestly think that, check out more tunes then. Sometimes IIm7b5 appears, sometimes not. Sometimes the chord moves straight back to I

A perfect cadence is V-I. The ii is decoration, an optional extra if you want it. The Bm7b5 arises from a suspension of the perfect cadence originally, but that’s a whole other rabbit hole. Suffice to say, sometimes it’s there, sometimes it’s not.

Yes, but with Tristan and Isolde, we've left the realm of traditional harmony.

Nah mate while Wagner does stretch tonality in the opera and this famous passage is pretty hip for the 19th century, the specific passage is still functional, tonal harmony, and it works great in a minor blues. It’s basically I - VI7 - V7 with some chromatic decoration. Which is to say tonic-subdominant-dominant if you like that sort of talk. Or a half cadence.

I find it jolly to drop it into a minor blues.

The F#m7b5 just arises from an accented lower chromatic neighbour below the third of the next chord “F7b5” (which classical theorists would call a French sixth in this context)

music theorists have a vested interest in making things complicated, probably because where it actually gets interesting is the way Wagner uses that first chord Fm7b5 which would normally just be a passing dissonance as a very important structural feature in its own right, so in context it seems perverse and to miss something to simply call the chord a passing dissonance as it seems to have its own importance to the whole piece - but that’s again, another rabbit hole.

F7 would resolve to Bb. I don't have a clear idea of how the F7 would sound in this context. I'd have to hear it.

Technically it’s not F7 - it’s an augmented sixth but there’s no chord symbol for that if that helps.

If not, the Eb is spelled as a D#; it is classified as an alteration of Dm/F and therefore a chromatic variant of a subdominant chord in classical theory, which is to say it sets up E; and adds a bit of bite with this D#-E move in the voice leading.

It’s a very common chord in a minor key half cadence throughout the 18th and 19th centuries and jazz sort of inherited it. Look through Bach and there’s examples though I always hear it as more as a Classical era chord, more Mozartian. Dm6/F is more ‘baroque’ in this context

Check out the tunes I mentioned for examples.

Beautiful Love - that’s another one

[ragman1]

Never ask them a simple question on JGO :-)

[Christian Miller]

Never ask them a simple question on JGO :-)

if people are going to theory at me I will get drawn in. I don’t know why people do that, as if they can prove music wrong using facts and logic. Just learn more tunes! Theory follows music not vice versa.

The important information is - there are many songs and tunes where you see F7 followed by E7 or Bm7b5 E7 in Am. Practice it! It’s a really common chromatic chord.

Also it’s the blues!

The diatonic F6 and Dm6/F chords are also common, but less colourful and easy to solo on.

Also, Barry harris taught me to just pretend F7 is Bm7b5. It works.

[Christian Miller]

You quite often get two ii Vs like

Cm7 F7 Bm7b5 E7

also

Cm7 F7 Bm7 E7

its just ‘ii V’ing the F7 E7

Stablemates is a good example (though that goes to a major I chord.) Golson loves this type of move.

[Christian Miller]

Oh more examples of the bVI7 chord

you don’t what love is
jordu
alone together
darn that dream (major key example)

[ccroft]

Gee, thanks guys! Another thread bookmarked and tossed into the vast bin full of things I really should spend some time investigating... :) :)

I'm gonna learn a lot one day!

[pcjazz]

Well this is odd: the thread title in the postings list is "Minor i vi ii V question" but everything is capitalized at the top of the thread: "MINOR I VI II V". Most (all?) answers address VI or VI7 rather than vi. Which did the OP intend? (And yes, I do know that you can often replace vi with VI or VI7 and its subs in this sort of static progression.)

[Laurence Finston]

If you honestly think that, check out more tunes then. Sometimes IIm7b5 appears, sometimes not. Sometimes the chord moves straight back to I

If there's a Dm7 before the Bm7b5, then you have the subdominant. There are lots of examples of harmonies that aren't ii V I or IV V I or ii V i, etc.

A perfect cadence is V-I.

I don't know what the source of this definition is. According to the book I learned harmony from, a cadence is subdominant - dominant - tonic. That book is Harmonielehre by Dieter de la Motte. If you learned harmony from a different source or sources, then you might have learned different definitions.

The ii is decoration, an optional extra if you want it. The Bm7b5 arises from a suspension of the perfect cadence originally, but that’s a whole other rabbit hole. Suffice to say, sometimes it’s there, sometimes it’s not.

The concept of a suspension of a cadence is unfamiliar to me. I know what a suspension is, but according to what I learned, the term isn't used this way.

Nah mate while Wagner does stretch tonality in the opera and this famous passage is pretty hip for the 19th century, the specific passage is still functional, tonal harmony, and it works great in a minor blues. It’s basically I - VI7 - V7 with some chromatic decoration. Which is to say tonic-subdominant-dominant if you like that sort of talk. Or a half cadence.

Have you ever sat through it? It never resolves. I found extremely difficult to listen to and was never so glad that an opera was over, except for when I sat through Parsifal, where I thought I would die of boredom.

Technically it’s not F7 - it’s an augmented sixth but there’s no chord symbol for that if that helps.

Again, I don't know what the source is for this interpretation. According to what I learned, there is no "augmented sixth". You can certainly notate it, with a "#6" below and to the right of the root of the chord, but I don't know what it would be meant to express. I think it would be heard as a dom. 7th, but that's subjective.

If not, the Eb is spelled as a D#; it is classified as an alteration of Dm/F and therefore a chromatic variant of a subdominant chord in classical theory, which is to say it sets up E; and adds a bit of bite with this D#-E move in the voice leading.

I'm not familiar with the term "chromatic variant". I don't think there is such a thing, but there may be in some theory of harmony that I don't know.

It’s a very common chord in a minor key half cadence throughout the 18th and 19th centuries and jazz sort of inherited it. Look through Bach and there’s examples though I always hear it as more as a Classical era chord, more Mozartian. Dm6/F is more ‘baroque’ in this context

If we're talking about Bach, then it's not sufficient to label the chords. Bach is both contrapunctal and harmonic at the same time. It is necessary to look at the voice leading.

[Laurence Finston]

if people are going to theory at me I will get drawn in. I don’t know why people do that, as if they can prove music wrong using facts and logic. Just learn more tunes! Theory follows music not vice versa.

It wasn't my intention to "throw theory" at anybody. My intention was to not just name a bunch of chords but to try to explain how things work. If the OP understands the principles, he or she can figure out for him or herself what alterations are possible and won't have to ask. "Give a person a fish" etc.

The important information is - there are many songs and tunes where you see F7 followed by E7 or Bm7b5 E7 in Am. Practice it! It’s a really common chromatic chord.

I would interpret F7 - E7 simply as chromatic motion, not as the F having some function within Am.

[Laurence Finston]

Gee, thanks guys! Another thread bookmarked and tossed into the vast bin full of things I really should spend some time investigating...

I'm gonna learn a lot one day!

It's not rocket science, you could learn it in two weeks.