What do you call power chords with chord symbols?

[Hep To The Jive]

I don’t hear thirds in the chords in the main riff of the song.

Top voice of the guitar chords goes E-D-A. They are standard shapes but it my ears at least the thirds are muted. If it were standard E, D and A grips we’d hear a clear G#-F#-C# in the top voice, which I don’t think I

I do hear the bass playing the third in the last chord, so overall a tasty inversion A/C#. (Suspect a few bar bands miss that subtlety.)
do.

That’s a trick Megadeth use on Symphony of Destruction too (and U2 a lot too, Adam Clayton is often on the third, while the Edge plays open fifths) - the bass can sweeten up the overal harmony without losing the clarity of the distorted guitars .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I do hear the 3rd on A, and the bass playing C# means it is a triad being played. To me E-D-A major triads implied in the song. Anyway AC/DC is not exemplary band for power chords, you need plenty of distortion to make it effective, which they don't have.

Black Sabbath would be much better case. Metallica and the likes.

Btw how do you notate 4th power chords? Like Smoke On The Water main riff? DG is the opening 'chord', do you say G5/D?

Or 3rds power chords like in Metallica's Battery and Orion songs?

[Christian Miller]

I do hear the 3rd on A, and the bass playing C# means it is a triad being played. To me E-D-A major triads implied in the song. Anyway AC/DC is not exemplary band for power chords, you need plenty of distortion to make it effective, which they don't have.

EDIT; I’m listening to it again and I flip between hearing a C# in the guitar and not. I suppose it’s possible one guitar is playing the full A shape (possibly Malcolm) and one is playing the A5 with more drive. (Anyway people go deep with this stuff.)

So these open power chords go back before metal or even akka dakka. Pete Townshend was talking about and playing power chords back in the 60s and early 70s, and he was using what would be considered a mild crunch by modern standards. Won’t Get Fooled Again is a similar vibe, x 0 2 2 x x etc. IIRC he gave Link Wray the credit. What is Back in Black but an evolution of Rumble?

And course there’s Zep. Plenty of power chords there too.

Black Sabbath would be much better case. Metallica and the likes.

Btw how do you notate 4th power chords? Like Smoke On The Water main riff? DG is the opening 'chord', do you say G5/D?

Or 3rds power chords like in Metallica's Battery and Orion songs?

So in this case these are more like riffs harmonised in fourths and fifths - moveable shapes. I’m thinking of iron man, pastor of muppets etc.

Orion makes me think of the minor sixth interval eg x 2 5 x x x or two note inversion. I always think of that as the Queen chord


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hep To The Jive]

EDIT; I’m listening to it again and I flip between hearing a C# in the guitar and not. I suppose it’s possible one guitar is playing the full A shape (possibly Malcolm) and one is playing the A5 with more drive. (Anyway people go deep with this stuff.)

So these open power chords go back before metal or even akka dakka. Pete Townshend was talking about and playing power chords back in the 60s and early 70s, and he was using what would be considered a mild crunch by modern standards. Won’t Get Fooled Again is a similar vibe, x 0 2 2 x x etc. IIRC he gave Link Wray the credit. What is Back in Black but an evolution of Rumble?

And course there’s Zep. Plenty of power chords there too.



So in this case these are more like riffs harmonised in fourths and fifths - moveable shapes. I’m thinking of iron man, pastor of muppets etc.

Orion makes me think of the minor sixth interval eg x 2 5 x x x or two note inversion. I always think of that as the Queen chord


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Rumble is all triads open chords though. Maybe on D he doesn't always hit F#, but def E and A are fully strummed. Plus B7 also. No power chords in sight here, although it sounds mighty powerful!

I need to investigate Pete Townshed again, but the songs I learned before were full chorded. The only thing those guys when strumming always put emphasis on the low strings, but I'm sure left hand was fretting the open or barre chords fully. Unlike the real metal guys, who consciously just muted all the strings outside of that 5th with intent, for a tighter sound.

[pamosmusic]

I need to investigate Pete Townshed again, but the songs I learned before were full chorded. The only thing those guys when strumming always put emphasis on the low strings, but I'm sure left hand was fretting the open or barre chords fully. Unlike the real metal guys, who consciously just muted all the strings outside of that 5th with intent, for a tighter sound.

Pete used power chords for sure. He liked to mute and strum through the whole thing, and at a point The Who got pretty orchestrated so it can be hard to tell who’s playing the third (get it?) but there are places where he’s clearly not. Christian mentioned Won’t Get Fooled Again and that opening chord is definitely a power chord. Usually sounds to me like the A is a power chord and the E and D are full chords. The riff between verses portably power chords.

EDIT: from the kids are alright … he always favors those open string power chords on A and D in particular, but there are a couple shots here where you can see him very clearly using closed power chords too:

Baba O Riley here (He ditches the tambourine at 1:45):

Don’t allow yourself to be distracted by the hips.

[pamosmusic]

(The Who is my moms all time favorite band, so a lot of Pete in my repertoire back when I was in high school)

[Christian Miller]

I need to investigate Pete Townshed again, but the songs I learned before were full chorded. The only thing those guys when strumming always put emphasis on the low strings, but I'm sure left hand was fretting the open or barre chords fully..

When I do it, I finger for instance a full cowboy A chord, but don't fully press down the third finger note.

Might we compare this with the Freddie Green one note chord technique? ;-)

[Christian Miller]

Listening to Rumble again (what a great track, such a great groove and tempo) Link appears to be playing (to my ears)

This thing
x 0 0 2 3 0
Which we could call I dunno Dsus2/A (lol)
Followed by a full E chord with that ringing E particularly prominent

And then when he moves to IV, the 'Don't Get Fooled' A power chord. x 0 2 2 x x

So yeah.

[pauln]

Why oh why...?

Music theory defines notes by position (which line or space on the staff) rather than pitch in order to coherently support the definition of intervals as the distance between notes rather than the distance between pitches.

If one does not grasp this distinction, music theory will stop making sense as one encounters the concepts that rely on the strict definitions of note and interval, at which confusion many may cease their study of theory.

The casual confounding of the terms note and pitch by thinking of them as equivalent is the main reason for the conceptual boundary one encounters in the study of music theory, beyond which things stop making sense just about the level where the theory concepts begin becoming really useful, interesting, and productive.

[henryrobinett]

Music theory defines notes by position (which line or space on the staff) rather than pitch in order to coherently support the definition of intervals as the distance between notes rather than the distance between pitches.

If one does not grasp this distinction, music theory will stop making sense as one encounters the concepts that rely on the strict definitions of note and interval, at which confusion many may cease their study of theory.

The casual confounding of the terms note and pitch by thinking of them as equivalent is the main reason for the conceptual boundary one encounters in the study of music theory, beyond which things stop making sense just about the level where the theory concepts begin becoming really useful, interesting, and productive.

What music theory??? That’s a generality. All kinds of courses in music theory. I taught music theory for years in universities, colleges and music schools. Music theory makes perfect sense me. It looks like it murky to you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[henryrobinett]

Pitches are also defined by intervals. Position is an arbitrary guideline. Sometimes music DOES NOT exist on a staff or on an instrument. But still guided by its relationship to other pitches in terms of intervals, harmony, chords, keys, atonality.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[pamosmusic]

If one does not grasp this distinction, music theory will stop making sense as one encounters the concepts that rely on the strict definitions of note and interval, at which confusion many may cease their study of theory.

Are there many of these?

It generally seems like your mission in these discussions is to say music theory is silly and everyone should be an “ear player” (as though the two were mutually exclusive), then split hairs on some theoretical concept to the point where it makes no sense whatsoever, and then say “see theory doesn’t make sense.”

I have to admit, it makes for a fun time, but it’s certainly not helpful or reflective of the way people actually use or talk about music theory.

Lets get back to Pete Townshend.

[pauln]

I deny all allegations.
The defense rests.

[Hep To The Jive]

Listening to Rumble again (what a great track, such a great groove and tempo) Link appears to be playing (to my ears)

This thing
x 0 0 2 3 0
Which we could call I dunno Dsus2/A (lol)
Followed by a full E chord with that ringing E particularly prominent

And then when he moves to IV, the 'Don't Get Fooled' A power chord. x 0 2 2 x x

So yeah.

x0222x

Sorry mate but my ears tells me it's A major chord in Rumble. C# is there. I can hear it, but you can choose not to play it I guess... The question is why would you?

[henryrobinett]

I don’t know why I’m getting so hot under the collar. Probably because I’m “arguing” with someone who clearly doesn’t understand what he’s talking about, and doing it in such an arrogant manner. Man. Thats I’ve left these forums so many times in the past.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Mick-7]

Btw how do you notate 4th power chords? Like Smoke On The Water main riff? DG is the opening 'chord', do you say G5/D?
Or 3rds power chords like in Metallica's Battery and Orion songs?

I suggested earlier that we use "4" for a 4th power chord, e.g., C-F = C4.

I don't know what you mean by a "3rd power chord" since standard harmony is tertiary - based on 3rds.

[Mick-7]

I don’t know why I’m getting so hot under the collar. Probably because I’m “arguing” with someone who clearly doesn’t understand what he’s talking about, and doing it in such an arrogant manner. Man. That's I’ve left these forums so many times in the past.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Yes sir, without naming names, certain forum members comments are best ignored, but I enjoy your posts so please don't let them deter you.

[henryrobinett]

Yes sir, without naming names, certain forum members comments are best ignored, but I enjoy your posts so please don't let them deter you.

Lol! Well yes. Once you know the forums and personalities I fl exactly that. I remember some here I put on ignore years ago. It’s been too long since I’ve been around.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Hep To The Jive]

When I do it, I finger for instance a full cowboy A chord, but don't fully press down the third finger note.

Ok but why? If you play those 50's or 60's songs they sound best playing the full chords. I do believe even if a guitarists missed those notes in a chord sometimes it wasn't fully intentional.

For me it's a simple formula: the more gain you use the less you play in a chord, and vice verse. The metal guys like Metallica they can't play more than 3 strings in a chord because it would sound like a big mess with that amount of distortion. But if you play with natural amp overdrive you can play the full chords and it sounds glorious.

How many times I red bands like Ramones, people say yea it's power chords that's all they do. Wrong! It's full barre chords, that's how you get the sound! Same with AC/DC, only they use open chords more often.

I don't even know why we're discussing it on a jazz forum, like who cares, but I'm a rocknroll guy who was trained in jazz, but who never really moved on haha.

[pamosmusic]

Yes sir, without naming names, certain forum members comments are best ignored, but I enjoy your posts so please don't let them deter you.

Whoa dude I’m RIGHT here

[Christian Miller]

x0222x

Sorry mate but my ears tells me it's A major chord in Rumble. C# is there. I can hear it, but you can choose not to play it I guess... The question is why would you?

Oh no, you’re right about rumble I definitely hear it now. Fine.

Ok Ac/dc …

No C# in the last chord. It’s an overtone of the bass guitar


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Christian Miller]

Ok but why? If you play those 50's or 60's songs they sound best playing the full chords. I do believe even if a guitarists missed those notes in a chord sometimes it wasn't fully intentional.

For me it's a simple formula: the more gain you use the less you play in a chord, and vice verse. The metal guys like Metallica they can't play more than 3 strings in a chord because it would sound like a big mess with that amount of distortion. But if you play with natural amp overdrive you can play the full chords and it sounds glorious.

How many times I red bands like Ramones, people say yea it's power chords that's all they do. Wrong! It's full barre chords, that's how you get the sound! Same with AC/DC, only they use open chords more often.

I don't even know why we're discussing it on a jazz forum, like who cares, but I'm a rocknroll guy who was trained in jazz, but who never really moved on haha.

Well I suppose Pete and Tony Iommi are big jazz guitar fans…

There seems a few things I'd pull up in your post:
1) you would only use power chords of tertian chords didn't sound good (no - you might use them because they sound different, tighter perhaps)
2) perhaps an implication that I'm suggesting full chords don't sound good with a crunchy amp (I agree that they do sound good)
3) That rock (as opposed to metal) rhythm players such as those mentioned include thirds in all their chords (Which they clearly don't, the ratio presumably varying from player to player)
4) That even if this is the case, the intuitive physical aspects of music making can in some way be overlooked because they weren't 'intentional' (which I completely reject)

I always used to think of rock guitar as simple, but there’s a lot of nuance and precision in the best rock rhythm guitarists. What notes they include and don’t are important details, even if it’s intuitive. Their job is not just to groove but to shape the energy of the song along with the drummer via orchestration (for want of a better word). How you mute chords and so on is really important. Power chords have been part of the toolkit for a long time.

EDIT: another thing that occurs is that left hand muting which naturally comes out of thumb-over position means that you can get the rhythmic percussive effect of playing a whole chord when you are actually being highly selective about what notes you are letting ring. As Paul Gilbert points out that’s also where a lot of schooled players go wrong with lead too. So their playing lacks vibe and energy.

It’s to allow the energy of unrestrained left hand strum with a lot do control in what notes are sounding and which are not. It’s not something that is taught to classical players of course, but it unites, say Freddie Green and Malcolm Young. It’s something I think you learn by playing music in bands.

It’s a huge thing, and extremely relevant for jazz rhythm guitar too (and old school pick style comping which is of course big and clever.)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dave70]

Jeez guys I think "Chords" to (probably) most rock guitar players means shapes or grips. They called it "power" because there's no girly 3rd in there to sweeten it up, or 7 to sound weird! lololol