Irregular phrase lengths

[ll00l0l]

What are some points to consider when writing irregular phrase lengths (non-multiples of 2 or 4 measures?) It seems these can often sound awkward and unbalanced, especially since a great deal of (western) music consists of measure groupings in multiples of 4 (particularly pop music).
I'd think a strong, cohesive melody would help, and chord progressions that match important points/contours of the melody so that they complement each other.
Points of tonicization/arrival within the chord progression could also add to the feeling of reaching a goal, and subdividing the entire sequence into sub-units that the ear can hear as more organically whole.
And of course, the listener needs to understand that it's simply not the symmetrical grouping structure they may be used to.

[equenda]

What are some points to consider when writing irregular phrase lengths (non-multiples of 2 or 4 measures?) It seems these can often sound awkward and unbalanced, especially since a great deal of (western) music consists of measure groupings in multiples of 4 (particularly pop music).
I'd think a strong, cohesive melody would help, and chord progressions that match important points/contours of the melody so that they complement each other.
Points of tonicization/arrival within the chord progression could also add to the feeling of reaching a goal, and subdividing the entire sequence into sub-units that the ear can hear as more organically whole.
And of course, the listener needs to understand that it's simply not the symmetrical grouping structure they may be used to.

We all know that in Jazz we are FREE. We can play anything and at the end of the show no one will be able to give us a fine.....for having played too much, for having played too little or for having done something wrong.
But I understand what you wrote well because it's a question I often ask myself. Going into detail, a melodic phrase should usually "occupy" 2, 4, 6 or 8 bars. Obviously the melodic phrase must end (logical! ) and leave some breathing space for the listener and the musician, in fact the rests (we all know it) are enormously important.
So if we consider for example a traditional ii - V - I, 4 bars progression:

|: Dm7 / / / | G7 / / / |CMaj7 / / / |CMaj7 / / / :|

.....the melodic phrase CANNOT extend for 4 bars but must end BEFORE, i.e. on the CMaj7 chord in the 3rd. or 4th. bar.
Another example could be the Blues where it is possible to play a long melodic phrase of 4 measures which will end on the IV7 chord in the 5th. bar.
Ask yourself the question: how much should I play and where should I stop?
Also in this case I believe that paper, the staff and the pencil are very useful to better understand how to improvise. Instinct is an indispensable basis, but sometimes it's not enough.

Ettore

Melodic Improvisation for Jazz Guitar

[rpjazzguitar]

I think the issue is often whether the result feels natural (which may take some repetition) or feels contrived, even after much repetition.

Sometimes a variation in phrase length clearly makes a tune more interesting - by surprising the listener. You want a balance between predictability and lack thereof. Changes in phrase length contribute to the latter.

Similar argument for time signature changes.

But, I've also heard odd phrase lengths (and time signature changes) sound arbitrary - making the tune seem less well conceived.

So, the issue is whether the result is musical. I don't know how to define that, but I sometimes know it when I hear it.

[ll00l0l]

Some things you can do to surprise the listener would be to hold the last bar of a resolution for a second bar (double length), add a measure of drum fill, repeat a sub-unit of the melody in the same or altered key, or add a tag.

[Christian Miller]

Practice playing three bars on three bars off? Then five. Then mix it up.

Need to do that myself lol


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[rpjazzguitar]

Practice playing three bars on three bars off? Then five. Then mix it up.

Need to do that myself lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I can't imagine an effective general procedure to practice odd phrase lengths.

I think that you have to play a tune repeatedly until it doesn't sound odd any more.

Similarly for tunes with dropped beats or time signature changes.

I think it shows up in the solos. If you aren't feeling the oddities you're likely to have trouble freely improvising over them.

So it's one tune at a time.

[Dirk]

I think this Aaron Parks song is a good example of what you mean...
Nice solo by Kurt Rosenwinkel!

[Peter C]

You can do whatever you like as long as it sounds cool. A certain phrase may just want to take a particular twist, so you allow it to do so. The problem occurs (for me) when you want to write it into MuseScore. This old classic is in 3/4 but with a 4/4 twist, which really sets it off, IMO.

[Peter C]

I think this Aaron Parks song is a good example of what you mean...
Nice solo by Kurt Rosenwinkel!

That's lovely. Personally, I'm not thinking of the meter, just listening to the phrases, which are perfect in themselves. I listened to a lot of prog back in the day, so maybe that's why it all sounds quite normal to my ears.