"You've got to write a bad song...

[JimmyDunlop]

How many standards do you already know? The more songs you learn the easier it will be to write your own songs.

I disagree with you in this part. You need to be creative not to know a lot of songs. It can help you yes but not necessary is gonna work. Since there is a lot of players who improvise but they dont compose. Actually most of the improvisers didnt compose standards

[AllanAllen]

I disagree with you in this part. You need to be creative not to know a lot of songs. It can help you yes but not necessary is gonna work. Since there is a lot of players who improvise but they dont compose. Actually most of the improvisers didnt compose standards

Did you read the question I was replying too? OP has all the lingo and none of the know how. They could benefit from learning songs to see how it all goes together. They don't need to know 100 songs, but 5 could help.

[JimmyDunlop]

Did you read the question I was replying too? OP has all the lingo and none of the know how. They could benefit from learning songs to see how it all goes together. They don't need to know 100 songs, but 5 could help.

yes of course I read, imo you didnt reply any of his questions, you basically said, the most standards you know theb etter composer you will be... as if it was a magic trick

[AllanAllen]

It’s not magic. You learn songs, you see how they work and then you can manipulate them into your own songs. That’s it, that’s how composition works.

And you have to compose a lot of crap before you make anything worthwhile.

[MarkRhodes]

It’s not magic. You learn songs, you see how they work and then you can manipulate them into your own songs. That’s it, that’s how composition works.

And you have to compose a lot of crap before you make anything worthwhile.

If one takes out the Great American Songbook realm (-against which I have nothing), a lot of early rock'n'roll performers started out covering songs they liked. Some had record deals before they started writing much of their own material. (Realizing there was money in publishing was the catalyst for many a young performer to start writing songs.) In this way, they knew how to play a good many songs and played them a good many times in public, gaining not only a repertoire but some hard-won knowledge of what worked for them and what didn't.

It's easier to write songs when you know what makes 'em go. It's not magic at all, it's the learning of a craft.

[JimmyDunlop]

.

And you have to compose a lot of crap before you make anything worthwhile.

I competely disagree with you...

[AllanAllen]

Well... maybe you should learn some standards too.

[JimmyDunlop]

Well... maybe you should learn some standards too.

why? You are talking as somebody who knows a lot about the topic...can you show me your compositions? to proof something?

[AllanAllen]

You're mad at learning songs and this conversation is worthless.

[JimmyDunlop]

You're mad at learning songs and this conversation is worthless.

tipically, after some one ask to prove some skills then they run like this. I am not mad, but you didnt prove nothing after talking too much.
Maybe you are very good at composing, and you know more than me about this, which I can accept since I am beginner, but you would have to prove it instead of calling others mad or saying than they must learn standards, supposing they have little knowledge.

Prove it and then I can give credit for you. Else you are the typical guy who knows zero and talk too much...haha

[AllanAllen]

you are the typical guy who knows zero and talk too much...haha

Same as you.

[JimmyDunlop]

I didnt say nosense things like "you need to know many standards to compose"

if so tell me why many performers like big band members who knows many songs dont compose, cause most dont...obviously to know many songs doesnt give you the ability to compose. Your are giving a bad advice to the OP, imagine if he invest his time in that, and he doesnt see results

[AllanAllen]

Not everyone has the desire to compose their own songs. Sometimes life is just that simple.

I'm not saying they invest 5 years only learning songs. I'm saying if they know 0 standards maybe they should try learning 5, or even 2 to help them understand where a tri-tone substitution goes or what follows a 251.. But it doesn't matter because OP never replied at all.

Then you came in and said "you have to be creative" which is completely unhelpful and started an argument with me.

That's how I see things at least....

[JimmyDunlop]

Not everyone has the desire to compose their own songs. Sometimes life is just that simple.

I'm not saying they invest 5 years only learning songs. I'm saying if they know 0 standards maybe they should try learning 5, or even 2 to help them understand where a tri-tone substitution goes or what follows a 251.. But it doesn't matter because OP never replied at all.

Then you came in and said "you have to be creative" which is completely unhelpful and started an argument with me.

That's how I see things at least....

you said "the most you learn, the easiest is"

which is not true, as I said, there are peopel who knows a lot and they cant not casue they dotn have the desire, just cause they cant.

Of course you need to be creative...to create you need to be creative, simple. The word itself defines it. Its obvious, but ofc I cant expect that much from a guy who cant debate. You dont become creative by learning 5 songs or by learning 100 songs... you have it or good bye basically, dont give false hopes to the people.

[AllanAllen]

This isn't any fun and I want to get off the ride.

[fep]

Create something... that's all it takes to be creative.

How much time do you think most jazz musicians spend composing music compared to gigging, practicing and all the other time they put into music. 0 to 1% would be my guess.

I'm into songwriting and I maybe spend 5% of my music time writing songs. I find it my favorite thing to do.

Why wouldn't songwriting/composing be like other crafts like guitar playing? Certainly no one would expect to be good at it immediately without practice and gaining experience? What would happen if you spent 50% of your musical time composing? Your chops might suffer, you might not be as good of a guitarist. But you'd surely develop some composing skills and a haver bunch of original tunes.

Many jazz tunes are not that complicated to write.

It's not that jazz musicians can't compose, it's just that they don't. At least for many of them that's the case.

[fep]

You would really benefit from Jerry Coker's little book, Improvising Jazz and also Hearing The Changes. Also the The Johnny Rector chord book, Roger Edison, and David Eastlee Methods.

::

I have the Hearing the Changes and the Rector book. Good direct way to get material for tunes in the "Jazz Standard" style. Also, the Mickey Baker book.