Getting hung up on rhythms when transcribing

[RobSilver7]

I transcribe a lot. It has improved my ears and also of course I can see what improvisers like Bud Powell or Woody Shaw are doing melodically against chord changes.

But I often get hung up on rhythms — jazz players tend at times to play “sprays” of notes in weird places against the beat, and sometimes the drummer is playing across the beat in a way that is hard to find 1 2 3 4. I can hear the pitches but I can’t notate or figure out the rhythm at those points. Do any of you transcribers get hung up on rhythm and, when you do, do you just simplify it, ignore the issue or some other option?

Thanks

[pamosmusic]

Yes I get hung up on, but no I don't simplify or ignore it.

Rhythm is huge when you're transcribing, and I think is probably the best argument for writing transcriptions down at all.

Mind if I ask who you're transcribing? I wouldn't really describe most players I listen to in the way you describe, rhythmically.

(I would say there are places where putting the rough rhythm down with an instruction like "lay back" is quite useful, though)

[Tomcat]

I import any track to be transcribed into my DAW session window, adjust the project tempo to the track tempo, then check by zooming-in any unrecognized rhytm against the grid - if visible in the waveform which is often the case. So visual aid.

[RobSilver7]

Mind if I ask who you're transcribing? I wouldn't really describe most players I listen to in the way you describe, rhythmically.

Easier rhythmically: Bill Evans, Keith Jarrett (both right hands only), Grant Green, Freddie Hubbard.

Harder rhythmically: Cannonball Adderly, John Coltrane, Chick Corea, McCoy Tyner (both right hands only).

[pamosmusic]

Easier rhythmically: Bill Evans, Keith Jarrett (both right hands only), Grant Green, Freddie Hubbard.

Harder rhythmically: Cannonball Adderly, John Coltrane, Chick Corea, McCoy Tyner (both right hands only).

Oh yeah, I mean ... sure.

Those four are going to be really tough rhythmically. Cannonball because his time-feel is so malleable (some things feeling super straight and others swung hard, on top of the beat or behind the beat etc). The other three because they're a group you're going to get real sheets of sound stuff in ... septuplets, quintuplets, polyrhythms etc.

I've been transcribing Wayne with Miles lately, and there's a lot of that sort of floating over the time. I think with, say, Grant Green you buckle down and figure that sh** out. With some of the other guys you mention, there's going to be this place where you just have to decide if that is a weird septuplet thing, or like maybe a rushed triplet or something. And I feel like that's fine. It's a learning tool -- doesn't have to be perfect.

And no, a DAW won't help with that stuff. And on the easier stuff, having the DAW sort of defeats the purpose a bit, but maybe I'm just an old stick-in-the-mud.

[henryrobinett]

I almost never transcribe. It always seemed more an exercise in writing than in assisting with playing. Whenever I “learn” a solo I just use my ears and analyze as I go. And then I’ve never memorized them. I take a phrase, learn it and let it go. Otherwise it just takes too long. I’ve done it for students but otherwise I found no use for writing it down. It’s great for learning how to write though!


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[pamosmusic]

I almost never transcribe. It always seemed more an exercise in writing than in assisting with playing. Whenever I “learn” a solo I just use my ears and analyze as I go. And then I’ve never memorized them. I take a phrase, learn it and let it go. Otherwise it just takes too long. I’ve done it for students but otherwise I found no use for writing it down. It’s great for learning how to write though!


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For what it’s worth, I think most folks of my generation would describe this as transcribing. Means literally to turn into script, but the most folks in my cohort use it to encompass any focused learning by ear off a recording. Even if it isn’t written down.

[AllanAllen]

I don't write out transcriptions either. Everything is easier to learn the second time, or 3rd.... or the 100th if it's the dang bridge to Caravan. If I've learned 200 songs, 150 of them are the bridge to Caravan.

[pauln]

Rhythm is huge when you're transcribing, and I think is probably the best argument for writing transcriptions down at all.

You can't score beat width without multiplying the number of marks on the staff as tied and dotted sequences of shorter notes. If you score it straight but play it the way you remember hearing it, might as well just remember. I also think rhythm is huge when you're transcribing, and I think it's probably the best argument for not writing transcriptions down at all.

[henryrobinett]

For what it’s worth, I think most folks of my generation would describe this as transcribing. Means literally to turn into script, but the most folks in my cohort use it to encompass any focused learning by ear off a recording. Even if it isn’t written down.

I believe that's true. I call it ear transcribing. But most people memorize solos and licks and stuff. I've never done that. I am almost anal about improvisation. I have refused to regurgitate licks and solo bits. But the OP was talking about getting hung up on writing the rhythms. I don't worry about that. I worry about playing them.

[Christian Miller]

For what it’s worth, I think most folks of my generation would describe this as transcribing. Means literally to turn into script, but the most folks in my cohort use it to encompass any focused learning by ear off a recording. Even if it isn’t written down.

Jazz musicians in inconsistent use of terminology shocker!

FWIW I personally try to use terms I find clear. So if I write it down I might say 'take down' but if I'm just learning it by ear I say 'learning it by ear.'

If I'm not sure what someone else means, I can always ask. (I do wonder if some students form the false impression that what what jazz musicians term transcription always means writing things down.)

[Christian Miller]

BTW I feel I've learned a lot about rhythm, or at least, notating rhythms and understanding them trying to write things down. Holdsworth is fun for this haha.

OTOH try writing down that thing Monk does when he plays quarter note triplets on a straight upbeat.

[James W]

Most of what I've transcribed has tended to be either eighth note or sixteenth note based, medium to up-tempo, so generally not too difficult from a rhythmic perspective. Where there has been a problem it has been deciding where the (errant) notes fall in relation to the beat, trying to capture the push and pull can be tricky... but I wouldn't dwell on it. I mean, Lewis Porter transcribed John Coltrane's incredible 'Venus', except he doesn't try to replicate exactly the rhythms Trane plays, all the many subtleties and micro-rhythmic shifts etc. That's free jazz of course, but the tradition of notation in jazz is that it doesn't and can't indicate the rhythms with exactitude.

[pamosmusic]

I believe that's true. I call it ear transcribing. But most people memorize solos and licks and stuff. I've never done that. I am almost anal about improvisation. I have refused to regurgitate licks and solo bits. But the OP was talking about getting hung up on writing the rhythms. I don't worry about that. I worry about playing them.

Fair.

I think I'm not terribly imaginative with rhythm and I find writing them to be super useful because I actually have to think about and decode them.

And also about your earlier post, I also have found myself not really memorizing or digging too deep on solos. It's interesting. I learn them and work really hard to get them up to tempo, and then just put them away? Not sure why, but that works for me. I hear a lot of stuff kind of start turning up way down the line that I never really hear when I try to deliberately incorporate stuff.

[henryrobinett]

Fair.

I think I'm not terribly imaginative with rhythm and I find writing them to be super useful because I actually have to think about and decode them.

And also about your earlier post, I also have found myself not really memorizing or digging too deep on solos. It's interesting. I learn them and work really hard to get them up to tempo, and then just put them away? Not sure why, but that works for me. I hear a lot of stuff kind of start turning up way down the line that I never really hear when I try to deliberately incorporate stuff.

Yeah. Well for me I want to hear and pull out better what’s in my head. So learning something by ear a phrase at a time does this for me. It gives me better certainty about what I’m hearing and ability to pull it out of my head. I have a very specific exercise for doing this.

And BTW to Christian - I believe the word transcribe literally means to write it down as a written copy. So the word transcribe is incorrect for this usage.


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[pamosmusic]

Yeah. Well for me I want to hear and pull out better what’s in my head. So learning something by ear a phrase at a time does this for me. It gives me better certainty about what I’m hearing and ability to pull it out of my head. I have a very specific exercise for doing this.

Would be interested to hear what this is.

[henryrobinett]

Would be interested to hear what this is.

Basically it is playing the phrase over and over from the recording. Then I try to play the phrase on my guitar. I get the phrasing and rhythmic placement. Get it up to speed and analyze the thinking behind it. Then just check what I did against the original. If I don’t have it right I listen again and again over and over until I think I have it in my head. Then check it. Pickup my guitar and play it, even if I don’t think I have it. What’s MOST important is getting whatever is in my head out and under my fingers. I repeat until I have it. Then move on to the next phrase. Never hunt and peck notes from the recording. It’s gotta come from what’s in your mind. The copy you made. Not the recording.

I don’t know if this makes sense.


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[Christian Miller]

Yeah. Well for me I want to hear and pull out better what’s in my head. So learning something by ear a phrase at a time does this for me. It gives me better certainty about what I’m hearing and ability to pull it out of my head. I have a very specific exercise for doing this.

And BTW to Christian - I believe the word transcribe literally means to write it down as a written copy. So the word transcribe is incorrect for this usage.


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I try to focus on the things I have control over. I could spend my time telling other people they are in my opinion using a term correctly, or try and use language that is clearly understood.

Meaning in language drifts over time. For example I’ve noticed that increasingly the word ‘poignant’ is used by young people as a synonym for ‘pertinent’ rather than how I understood it which is ‘moving, affecting’. Unless it’s a US/UK division in the use of the word which I’m not aware of.

That said if you were to use the term transcription in classical circles the meaning is often used as an arrangement of a piece for a different instrument. For example, Segovia’s Bach transcriptions.

The term for the process writing music down by ear in classical circles that I’ve heard most frequently is “dictation”. (Not sure what the finished result is called.)


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[RobSilver7]

Basically it is playing the phrase over and over from the recording. Then I try to play the phrase on my guitar. I get the phrasing and rhythmic placement. Get it up to speed and analyze the thinking behind it. Then just check what I did against the original. If I don’t have it right I listen again and again over and over until I think I have it in my head. Then check it. Pickup my guitar and play it, even if I don’t think I have it. What’s MOST important is getting whatever is in my head out and under my fingers. I repeat until I have it. Then move on to the next phrase. Never hunt and peck notes from the recording. It’s gotta come from what’s in your mind. The copy you made. Not the recording.

I am the original poster. I like your proposed method and will try it. I have been writing out every thing that I transcribe and I think that has consumed too much of my attention vs. getting it in my ear and out to the guitar.

Thanks for your suggestions.

[pamosmusic]

word ‘poignant’ is used by young people as a synonym for ‘pertinent’ rather than how I understood it which is ‘moving, affecting’. Unless it’s a US/UK division in the use of the word which I’m not aware of.

It is not.

Young people are terrible and ruining language obvs

[pamosmusic]

Basically it is playing the phrase over and over from the recording. Then I try to play the phrase on my guitar. I get the phrasing and rhythmic placement. Get it up to speed and analyze the thinking behind it. Then just check what I did against the original. If I don’t have it right I listen again and again over and over until I think I have it in my head. Then check it. Pickup my guitar and play it, even if I don’t think I have it. What’s MOST important is getting whatever is in my head out and under my fingers. I repeat until I have it. Then move on to the next phrase. Never hunt and peck notes from the recording. It’s gotta come from what’s in your mind. The copy you made. Not the recording.

I don’t know if this makes sense.


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Yeah this makes sense. Honestly it’s a bit like what I tell myself I do already. I think what I’m reminding myself of here is just that I don’t do it as faithfully as I like to think.

And for an update, dear readers: Wayne is kicking the crap out of me right now. It’s his Stella solo, which is beautiful but also long stretches just him and Herbie, very rhythmically loose. It is hard.

[Christian Miller]

It is not.

Young people are terrible and ruining language obvs

Excellent. I will judge them in the balance and find them wanting.

[henryrobinett]

I am the original poster. I like your proposed method and will try it. I have been writing out every thing that I transcribe and I think that has consumed too much of my attention vs. getting it in my ear and out to the guitar.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Well I think that's good. It all depends on what you're going after. As a writing exercise transcribing it is great. As a learning process for what the soloist is doing - it's just too long winded. You get too caught up in the details that are less pertinent to studying improv. Remember the solo or performance contained little THOUGHT in and of itself. It flowed out. I think learning it by ear is a similar process, particularly if you train yourself to HEAR IT in your head rather than try and mimic the audio one note at a time. As students of jazz I think we forget this and want everything calcified like Bach or Beethoven. We are studying IMPROVISATION.

[henryrobinett]

I try to focus on the things I have control over. I could spend my time telling other people they are in my opinion using a term correctly, or try and use language that is clearly understood.

Meaning in language drifts over time. For example I’ve noticed that increasingly the word ‘poignant’ is used by young people as a synonym for ‘pertinent’ rather than how I understood it which is ‘moving, affecting’. Unless it’s a US/UK division in the use of the word which I’m not aware of.

That said if you were to use the term transcription in classical circles the meaning is often used as an arrangement of a piece for a different instrument. For example, Segovia’s Bach transcriptions.

The term for the process writing music down by ear in classical circles that I’ve heard most frequently is “dictation”. (Not sure what the finished result is called.)


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Cool. Dictation. Cool. I hear you regarding misapplication transcribe. It presents a problem for me. That's why I came up with "ear transcribing," which is still not quite right. But since I retired from teaching I don't worry about it any more. I know the concept!

[Christian Miller]

Cool. Dictation. Cool. I hear you regarding misapplication transcribe. It presents a problem for me. That's why I came up with "ear transcribing," which is still not quite right. But since I retired from teaching I don't worry about it any more. I know the concept!

Yeah I think that’s clear enough.

Isn’t the only reason these things have to have a name because of teachjng? And the fact that classical music is a score based tradition that is also dominant within music education? For the vast number of world musics that teach primarily by ear it’s just ‘learning music.’

Academic assessment also likes stuff to be written down.

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