Ear training with a fretless guitar

[grahambop]

You could always make yourself a diddley-bow (once you’ve finished the bottle of whisky):

[Jonah]

I am thinking about getting a cheap used acoustics - there are plenty of them around.. and just take out the frets myself - if it works more or less I will have the slots filled in..
If I like it - I will think about decent instrument...

I understand that electric guitar may help to cover sustain and tonal issue but still i wasnt to try with acoustic...

I see that there are lots of records on classical and nylons...

I can play both nylons and steel string guitars... is there any advantage of nylons for fretless playing?

And another video (also with oriental colour which I am not really after but very nice playing)... the guitar seems to be very simple classical... in later videos he alread has better quality instrument with specially made (fret?)board

This is another later record, and more conventional musically..

He is a wonderful player.. I only miss some dynamics range in his playing...

[Zina]

I am thinking about getting a cheap used acoustics - there are plenty of them around.. and just take out the frets myself

Would you report the results, please? I'd like to do that too if it works. I regret letting you do the speculative spending, but my own budget won't allow it at the moment. And I don't intend to make oriental sounds either, so if that's inevitable on a fretless guitar I'd like to know it in advance.

[Jonah]

Would you report the results, please? I'd like to do that too if it works. I regret letting you do the speculative spending, but my own budget won't allow it at the moment. And I don't intend to make oriental sounds either, so if that's inevitable on a fretless guitar I'd like to know it in advance.

Sure. As I see there is a bunch of used cheap guitars in my area below usd40.. It just takes some time to choose something playable.

the best advantage of trying the cheap one is that the most problematic contructional issue of cheap guitar is usually neck and frets .. if you make it fretless you het ways from thois problem... even neck twist can adjusted by polishing the fretboard in that case...

I am sure you can avoid playing 'oriental' -- violinist do not all play oriental music))) ---
I believe not all those that play it on youtube do it in the real way... some seem just to mimick microtonal soundscape becasue it is just easier than playing in tune with good intonation..
Real oriental music is serious semantical system of modes and requires good skills and knowledge.

This guy really tries well to do something conventional... I like it.. but ocasionally I hear that he loses control over intonation...

[Jonah]

I came across cheap steel 7-string Martinez with cutway - used forabout 80dollars.

Never came across it? Anyone has experience with it?
I always wanted to try 7 strings too.. could be a could idea to combine it.

The location is not very convinient for me to go to try...

[Zina]

I am sure you can avoid playing 'oriental' -- violinist do not all play oriental music)))

True, but I was imagining the difficulty of making clean chords. I'd like to shift whole chords; similar to slide guitar, but more precise/local, without the rattle, and without losing the use of my auricular.

I believe not all those that play it on youtube do it in the real way... some seem just to mimick microtonal soundscape becasue it is just easier than playing in tune with good intonation..

Yes!

Real oriental music is serious semantical system of modes and requires good skills and knowledge.

That's right as well. I've a record by Oum Khalsoum, and only realised much later the intricacies and discipline involved for the orchestra.

I came across cheap steel 7-string Martinez with cutway - used forabout 80dollars. Never came across it? Anyone has experience with it? I always wanted to try 7 strings too.. could be a could idea to combine it. The location is not very convinient for me to go to try...

No, I've never seen a 7-string, and have access to few musicshops. I read that the russian guitar has 7, and asked someone to look for a cheap used one over the summer vacation. She did, but it got stolen by gypsies on the way back. I hope that 7th string stumped them!

Btw, is the 7th string used for drones, or can it be used in chords?

[Jonah]

No, I've never seen a 7-string, and have access to few musicshops. I read that the russian guitar has 7, and asked someone to look for a cheap used one over the summer vacation. She did, but it got stolen by gypsies on the way back. I hope that 7th string stumped them!

Btw, is the 7th string used for drones, or can it be used in chords?

Well... traditional Russian guitar is 7 strings with open tuning (G major chord with D in the bass) and traditional construction has neck on bolt that you can take off or adjust neck angle.

No, low 7th is not drone... it is chordal.
In 19th century there was a lot of classical music composed for this guitar in Russia.

Also thumb over neck was regular technique for fretting 7th string

Here it was still popular in 60s - 70s as 'home instument' for comping songs (not Western music and not traditional Russian music... but some kind of romances and also very popular 'bards' movement, singing poets... something like American folk-rock songowriters but in different style).

When I was a kid the 7strings were already often tuned as 6 string to play Western music easily...

Today there are plenty of Soviet period 7th strings here for sale that you can get for 20-30 dollars often in decent condition... the biggest problem would be the quality.
Soviets could not make decent instruments, the necks are extremely thick, the tops can be solid but very thick too. The best you can do with these low-end guitars is comping in traditional gypsy or Russian romance styles.

This Martinez is definitely not Russian type of 7-string.
My idea was actually to try two options: 1) is standard tuning with low A on 7th string (e.g. like Pizzarellis do),
2) one of my guitars has totally alternative (and very weird for others) tuning which combines some ideas of tuning I have from lutes with half-Nashville tuning... but I feel like I need an extra bass string in that tuning, and also probably

I should say while I keep playing standard 6sting all the time and developing ideas and all.. I like experimenting even if it does not succed I always feel like it affects my approach to traditional guitar.

Here is our Rob playing one... but traditional Russian guitars are mostly steel stings!

And Doff guitars are terrible mostly...
they use solid materials and make very low price (cheaper than laminated Chinese guitars sometimes) but the quality is mostly scary, I tried a quite a few. I do not why they cannot make it properly.
(If Rob got one good he is really lucky).

There is another small company in St.Petersburg - GMD - those are real instruments (but the price is also much higher).

[Jonah]

I found two more examples of relatively conventional music on fretless guitar.. a bit too pop to my taste but still it shows conventional harmony and intonations

This one is on converted classical - note it is expensive model that was concerted by professional luthier (I guess that fretboard was changed or coverd with extra plate.)
I think this record shows more realistic sounds (no compressors probably etc)... trebles are a bit out of balance.
On the other hand I can see that the player (hower tasteful and skilful he is) is not really a classical guy and probably one could get more sound out of this guitar with a different picking technique

Fretless classical guitar acoustic nylon string - YouTube


And here is AFG fretless (it is said to be made fretless) - and steel string....
I hear something like steels are weaker on fretless than nylons... (I mean acoustic guitars)...
Nylons have bigger sound and more controlable and clearly pronounced intonation.


But I hear here also that basses go over trebles... again could be the player too... also he seems to play melody on bass stringsuse trebles mostly as doubling melody and harmonic notes so that could be the reason the trebles are in the background (or maybe the chice of arrangent was made because of weaker trebles)

[Jonah]

I think even for people who have perfect pitch fretless instruments are difficult.

perfect pitch can make even more problems in that case actually.

[corpse]

I am thinking about getting a cheap used acoustics - there are plenty of them around.. and just take out the frets myself - if it works more or less I will have the slots filled in..
.

Jaco did this

[Jonah]

Jaco did this

I know... Jaco is one of those who immidiately captured my attention once I was told about him - not becaus eif his bass - but I think is one of the most fresh and brilliant musician in jazz ... his records as a leader with the band are pure joy.

And yes I know that story... I think Fender issues cutoms bass that looks like it had frets that were taken away...

But! Jaco played electric long-scale bass range (thick strings) instrument...
that trick may not work as well on acoustic guitar

[corpse]

I think it will work. Good luck.

[Jonah]

In case someone wants to try at least the approximation of how it will sound on particular guitar.. yesterday I put thin ruler under the strings and fixed it with a capo (you can do it even wihout a capo...).
Of course it gives buzz somewhere and it's not the same thing as polished fredboard... but on many notes you can hear clear tone well and the sustain that would supposedly be quite close to what you will have on converted guitar.

This concerns only tone and sustain - you cannot check playability this way of course.

[Zina]

<7-string information>

Thanks; that was helpful. I'd like the 7th to be a bass string as well. I'm experimenting with 5 different open tunings, all with low 6ths, and I'm quickly getting a taste for all of them; they sound great for finger-style, whether acoustically or mixed with light amplification.

This one is on converted classical - note it is expensive model that was concerted by professional luthier (I guess that fretboard was changed or coverd with extra plate.)
I think this record shows more realistic sounds (no compressors probably etc)... trebles are a bit out of balance.
On the other hand I can see that the player (hower tasteful and skilful he is) is not really a classical guy and probably one could get more sound out of this guitar with a different picking technique

Fretless classical guitar acoustic nylon string - YouTube

I like that a lot.

I just saw your trick with the ruler; clever. I'll wait till after the holidays and look for a cheap, but decent classical guitar. And a pair of pliers...

[neatomic]

as per jaco..he in no way invented the electric fretless bass..he just wanted that sound and went about a way to achieve it with the bass that he owned...he pulled the frets and filled them (with wood filler if i recall)...then used marine (boat) epoxy (he was a florida boating kid) to get a super hard durable finish


one of the great unitar..single string "guitar" 45's..on the specialty (little richard) label no less!

b side was unitar instro!

cheers

[Jonah]

this is BEFORE

I did that...

After trying a few cheap used acoustics and classicla guitar.. I came to the point I do not want to buy this garbage to try...
If I do not like it it will be just a waste of money - and the cheapest playable was about 60 dollars...
If I like the result it will be anyways a waste of money because I would want a better soundng guitar to play then.

The problem with acoustics is that I am sure it should be really good to sound well fretless. If it sounds dead with frets it will hardly be any better without them.

With electric guitar you can cover it with a bit of reverb and delay (and I have Freeze by the way - could be interesting to try it with fretless)

I tried to search for used electrics but nothing interesting came up.

And then suddenly I realized what to do... I have a heavily modified Aria Sinsolnido (you can seeon the pic (before): there is a real pickup installed, tunomatic, grover tuners)... it is very comfortable to play ... the most comfortable freme guitar i ever tried.
convinient travel guitar which in such a setup can be also used for gigging...
But mostly I only use it for travels anyway.
Wherever possible I prefer to play hollow-body guitars.

I had some issues with frets there - they could be solved with polishing - not critical..

I decided: if I go fretless this guitar suits it better than anything... it looks great fretless imho.
And if I do not like it -- I have a friend luthier who can put new frets for not too much money..

I took the frets off for about 20 minitues using poker-work tool of my son to heat it.
I did it almost clean - some scratches which I polished easily after that.
The fretboard turned out to be much lighter by the way... I thought it was ebony, but it seems rosewood.. which is fine too.

I will adjust action at the bridge and the nut tonight ... it is too high for fretless.

I did not fill in the slots so far... I will see how it goes and fill it a bit later (byt the way I think it is important --- taking off the frets weekens the neck)

and also I think I will have to adjust pickup position.

I like the effect.. yes there is not sustain especially on trebles but I do not expect it to be there actually.

I play early lutes (baroque and renaisance) and in general lutes do not have sustaine, they have echoing sympathetic resonance... on electric guitar you can cover it with reverb and maybe a bit of delay.

It turns the instrument in almost percussive one.

I noodle now without looking at the fretboard - try to search pitch by ear only... my idea that markings are not the good idea - at least at the begining and for my purposes...
I already see that technique should be different - some fingering do not work (like finger unde finger on the same 'fret' - as the fret does not correct it, you should be very precise).

on the other hand my idea is not oriental stuff and glissandos but rather meantone temperaments that I tried to achieve on lutes with moveable frets.

I really enjoy and option to temper intervals the way I want - that is why I think markings are not good at the beginning... I want it all to be ears-- not eyes..

Byt the way when I playied a bit all in close postion and the plucked an open string I found out that I went up a bit)))
Next time I was more correct - and I try to start with open string to have a reference (or to play it in couterpoint)...
It reminded me as my friend - a great violinists - used to say: you do not need to tune violin at all)))

I will adjust the instrument and play a bit an dwill record just some noodling at least to demostrate it in a day or two...

[Tone Deaf Tony]

mmmm.... what kind of guitar is it? It seems to combine features I wanna try...

Could you share more please?

Is it modified? Or was it built like that?

Hi Jonah
I have 2 actually. One was built by the Yunzhi people while Mr. Wu worked for them. It's a thin line single cutaway with a floating pickup. It was originally fretted but I took the frets out, leveled the fingerboard after filling the fret grooves with epoxy. (relax the neck until it's absolutely straight and fill the fingerboard. Level with a luthier's straight edge, then keep the neck as close to straight as possible once restrung. I use LaBella roller wound strings.
The other one is an Ibanez AX7-521. Same treatment, pulled frets, filled, etc. If you can find the Korean version, they're great too, and in the $300 range. There's a Chinese version too, good too, and they used to be widely available for $100. Discontinued.
The solid body is actually easier to use. One of the most salient limitations of fretless is a damped (short) sustain. The notes die out quickly. Solid bodies are better in this respect.

Good luck
D

[Jonah]

Hi Jonah
I have 2 actually. One was built by the Yunzhi people while Mr. Wu worked for them. It's a thin line single cutaway with a floating pickup. It was originally fretted but I took the frets out, leveled the fingerboard after filling the fret grooves with epoxy. (relax the neck until it's absolutely straight and fill the fingerboard. Level with a luthier's straight edge, then keep the neck as close to straight as possible once restrung. I use LaBella roller wound strings.
The other one is an . Same treatment, pulled frets, filled, etc. If you can find the Korean version, they're great too, and in the $300 range. There's a Chinese version too, good too, and they used to be widely available for $100. Discontinued.
The solid body is actually easier to use. One of the most salient limitations of fretless is a damped (short) sustain. The notes die out quickly. Solid bodies are better in this respect.

Good luck
D

Thank you!

Could you say please if you used any laquer to finish the board or you just filled in the slots and sanded it?

[Tone Deaf Tony]

Thank you!

Could you say please if you used any laquer to finish the board or you just filled in the slots and sanded it?

I leveled it, then sanded it to a very fine grit, like 2000. This puts a very smooth almost reflective surface on the dark woods. Having access to luthier's radiused sanding block is really helpful, but not absolutely necessary. A long straight block of wood used as a sanding block works. At this stage, I played it a while, taking the action down to find any spots that weren't really smooth (glitches where notes were'nt clear) and to these spots I took a cabinet scraper and gently evened them out.
When it was all done for a critically low string height, I'd raise the action to a height that is musical. As far as finishing, no lacquer. I wanted to avoid any surface build up that would doubtlessly be cut through with the string on wood relationship of a fretless fingerboard. I do however use a coat of Danish Oil, applied, dried, wiped off with a cloth, and that protects the fingerboard. I reapply when needed, and I do keep a mindful watch for wear because, as you can imagine, it will tend to wear where it's used a lot. In that case, I just repeat the above process.
It might be easier on fingerboard wear to use flat wound strings, but that's not the sound I want so I can't speak to the idiocyncracies of steel wrap on wood.

D

[Jonah]

I leveled it, then sanded it to a very fine grit, like 2000. This puts a very smooth almost reflective surface on the dark woods. Having access to luthier's radiused sanding block is really helpful, but not absolutely necessary. A long straight block of wood used as a sanding block works. At this stage, I played it a while, taking the action down to find any spots that weren't really smooth (glitches where notes were'nt clear) and to these spots I took a cabinet scraper and gently evened them out.
When it was all done for a critically low string height, I'd raise the action to a height that is musical. As far as finishing, no lacquer. I wanted to avoid any surface build up that would doubtlessly be cut through with the string on wood relationship of a fretless fingerboard. I do however use a coat of Danish Oil, applied, dried, wiped off with a cloth, and that protects the fingerboard. I reapply when needed, and I do keep a mindful watch for wear because, as you can imagine, it will tend to wear where it's used a lot. In that case, I just repeat the above process.
It might be easier on fingerboard wear to use flat wound strings, but that's not the sound I want so I can't speak to the idiocyncracies of steel wrap on wood.

D

Thank you,

I have rosewood board. I levelled it a bit and left slots unfilled for a few days just check how it will work. I think tomorrow I will unstring it and clean the slots again and fill it with epoxy and after it is dried out do all the levelling and sending as you describe.

thankk you again

[Tone Deaf Tony]

Thank you,

I have rosewood board. I levelled it a bit and left slots unfilled for a few days just check how it will work. I think tomorrow I will unstring it and clean the slots again and fill it with epoxy and after it is dried out do all the levelling and sending as you describe.

thankk you again

Don't forget to slack the truss rod off and return the neck relief to zero before you do any filling. That will assure you've got the exact amount of epoxy you need to fill precicely. It's gonna look like a mess. Be patient. As soon as it starts setting up, I remove as much extra as possible, even starting the leveling process while the epoxy is pliable. Keep a razor nearby, the epoxy doesn't like to get down into a tight space. Apply it reasonably, work it in, when it's starting to set up and the fret spaces are well set, remove as much excess as you can, sanding block and paper will do. If you don't do that at this point, you're making a lot more work for yourself, and too, because epoxy is harder than wood, if you try to level large deposits of cured epoxy on a wood fingerboard, you'll tend to pit the wood before the epoxy even cares. Some handy tips. Good luck. Tell us how it comes out.
It's worth it!
D

[Jonah]

Thank you!

I finished filling in the slots and polishing... it all went very smooth. First it looked ugly I used a few different sanding papers and finally came to the surface almost as smooth as glass.
Now I have to adjust action and height of pickup, on this guitar it turned out to be a bit tricky as it had been customized and it was never expected to be played with such an action.

But I know the way how to do it, we will have long National holidays at the beginning of January - I think I will end it and play into it a bit and then make some recording.

[Peter C]

Just wanted to thank WillMbCdn5 for allowing me to discover Cenk Erdogan. Absolute master.

[Peter C]

Here he is playing one of his compositions on a fretted Graciliano Perez instrument, then a homage to Paco on unfretted. Both beautiful and powerful.