-
I'm starting to work on more ear training. I can make out most parts in an ensemble, the groove, the melody, the bass line. Chords of the chord instruments or the ensemble itself is the hardest part for me to hear so that's what I'm practicing. Do you guys have tips on how to hear what chord the chord instrument or ensemble is playing?
I have been doing ear training exercises:
Ear Training
-
10-11-2022 05:32 AM
-
This comes with time and it comes to a large part from playing. As you learn pieces, if you're mindful of the chords you play, those chords will take on an identity, a personality so to speak, that has an association in your own head.
For me, I remember feeling like it was magic when folk players could tell what a G C D progression was just from hearing someone else play. Through time, and learning pieces, through hearing chords in functional context, meaning "Is this the chord that ends a major phrase?" or "Is this where the turnaround is?", I came to think of individual chords, and therein the notes that differentiated them, as distinct entities. Or that's how it was for me.
Also don't make the mistake of neglecting triads when learning a piece just because you're playing a piece as it's written in the book, or because you might feel triads aren't 'hip' or 'jazzy' enough, you might take a piece like Autumn Leaves and learn it with triads.
And here's something that will be a real help for you in any case: Learn a piece OFF BOOK. Meaning, make it a goal to learn and memorize a piece without looking at your Real Book. By doing this, you get closer to hearing your way into the harmony, into the chords, of all music. It always seems like a huge task to memorize a piece but avoiding this just makes the journey harder because you are merely prolonging the ear training that automatically comes from wrestling a piece from the page to your fingers VIA your ear.
Most of all, be patient. It will come.
If you have a friend you can do exercises with, it WILL go much faster. Start with two chord combinations: V7 to I, V7 to i minor, I Major to II-, I Major to IV Major, IV Major to I, etc. These are the DNA of harmony in context and I've found that working with someone with whom you can hear and play, it sharpens the ear faster than working just by yourself.
Listen to music, Gypsy jazz, early swing music, recordings that are closer to essential harmony, and attempt to identify chord forms (turnarounds at the ends of phrases, minor passages, major chords) and let knowing songs teach you the chords that make those songs up.
Sing triads in major and the inversions.
Sing triads in minor and the inversions.
Play triads and sing play it on the guitar. (and later on, the inversions). If you have a piano keyboard instrument THIS WILL GO WAY FASTER.
Sing a triad and then play the chord so you can make the connection of notes and sound.
And again, be patient.
These are some things that were really helpful for me.
Good luck!
-
Thx for all the advice!
I'm a keys player, primarily organ but also piano. When I learned guitar I remember noticing that improvement of rote recognition of chords because of the same shapes constantly appearing. With keys there aren't restrictions on shapes so I don't get that as much.
I do learn some tunes by ear. I picked up my teacher's tune, indonesian nights easily because it's pretty simple. With more complex tunes, I'm like ok wtf is going on.
Thx for the other advice like singing, focusing on triads, and practicing hearing standard changes and turnarounds. I took musicianship in college, I'll have to get back into my singing.
-
For me ,
The more tunes I know and play
The easier it gets to hear the common changes
It seems to acumulate automatically
Just like you can now hear when a blues in Bb
Goes to the 4 chord ..
After a while you get to hear and understand all these
other common changes
Like going to the vi
or the III7 leading to the vi etc etc etc
-
Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
[When you learn those songs learn the melody as well. Bruce Forman has this nice mental image of the melody as a clothline to hang the chords on. Sing the melody while playing the song in all inversions. Learning the lyrics helps with remembering the melody and staying in the form. Learn the melody and lyrics from singers who stay close to the original compsition — e.g. Ella, Sinatra, Jo Stafford, Julie London; Miles advised others to learn songs from Sinatra.]
I would second Jimmy blue notes suggestion to transcribe by ear from recordings. As always: The more you do it the quicker you get.
-
Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
What is the chord's relationship to the key?
What is the chord's root position relative to the tonic of the key?
Is it actually relative to a temporary local key center's tonic?
What type of chord is it?
Major, minor, dominant?
With extensions?
With alterations?
What is the form of the chord?
Is the chord in normal form, or an inversion?
Is lowest pitch the chord's root, or another chord tone, or not a chord tone?
Is it major or minor voiced as its relative?
What is the chord's relationship to the song?
What was the previous chord?
What is the subsequent chord?
Is it an important chord that defines the song?
Is it a passing chord or other "ornament"?
Is it a substitution?
Is it a re-harmonized chord/change?
Can you analyze what you mean by "hearing what chord"?
Can you describe what you would actually know and be able to do?
-
[QUOTE=Jimmy Smith;1224562]I'm starting to work on more ear training. I can make out most parts in an ensemble, the groove, the melody, the bass line. QUOTE]
Being able to isolate the bass line is really important in my experience - you're on the right track.
-
I haven't done what I'm about to describe, at least not in an organized way.
The goal, of course, is to be able to hear a chord and know what it is. Or, maybe, a change of chord and know what the change is.
But, maybe, it would be easier to narrow that down to a single chord change, or a very short sequence, and try to learn just that one.
So, take this common progression as an example. C C7 F Fm C G7 C.
Divide it up. Can you hear C to C7?
How abaout C C7 F?
F to Fm?
C to G7?
G7 to C?
Can you memorize those sounds?
Then, try Cmaj7 to D7. A bunch of songs do that.
Or C E7 A7 D7 G7 C -- working on two chords at a time only.
The point I'm trying to make is that "I must train my ear" sounds like a big job.
"I must learn the sound of C going to C7" seems a little more manageable.
-
The way it's taught in university music programs:
- learn the sounds of all intervals and their inversions; for example a M3 inverts as a m6
- Use your ability to identify the sound of M3 vs m3 intervals to hear the sound of root position major vs minor triads
- learn to hear the sound of a diminished triad, which is a root-position minor triad with a flatted 5th
- learn to hear the sound of an augmented triad, which is a root-position major triad with an augmented 5th
- Work at the above till you can identify maj, min, aug, dim sonorities easily without thinking, as easy as red, yellow, blue, green or sweet, sour, hot, cold....
- at this point it helps to have a teacher or other pedagogy to show you common progressions and subsitutions based on functional diatonic harmony; for example I IV V I; I IV V I65 I; I IV V vii; I IV ii V I; I iii IV V vii etc.
- Now extend all the above to seventh chords and their inversions
- Now you are ready to learn the sounds and uses of secondary dominants (V chords built from a root other than V) and chromatic harmony based on secondary dominants and the half-diminished 7th chord that you get when you omit the root of a dominant chord.
- Now extend all the above to the 9th, the 11th, and the 13th.
- With all this "vanilla" harmony under your belt, explore the full-diminished 7th chord that is the upper partials of a V7b9. Note that all inversions of a full diminished chord are the same chord: Bdim=Ddim=Fdim=Abdim. So G7b9 has a full dim from its third, or from its 5th or from its 7th or from its b9. This is where the "altered dominant" scale comes from: melodic minor built on the b9.
A lot of the harmonic vocabulary of bebop comes from this and from harmonic minor, which is the set of chords that you get when you take natural minor and add a raised seventh scale degree. ii-7b5 V7b9 i is harmonic minor all the way. The III+ of harmonic minor is where naturally occurring augmented chords come from.
- Of course, all those standards that we know and love provide many classic chord progressions to see how this stuff works; for example, everyone knows iii vi ii V I, the fact that you can sub a (secondary) dominant for pretty much any of those chords, and the set of variations that come from TT subs on those chords, i.e. iii bIII7 ii bII7 I.
Learning to hear this takes years of hard work, but as someone who already plays keys and jazz, you may have a lot of this down already, just need to teach yourself the names for things you already know how to hear, and have a mental model that relates all of these to key centers.Last edited by starjasmine; 10-12-2022 at 10:45 PM.
-
@ rpjazzguitar and starjasmine. Thx for the write ups detailing how to go about it incrementally and get basic progressions down then increase the complexity. That's my instinct about how to go about it also. I can hear basic stuff like that.
@pauln. I have understanding of those principles from my history of playing, I can't usually recognize them when listening to a new tune. I would like to be able to have a basic ability to hear the root movement relative to the key and the quality of each chord.
-
Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
-
Originally Posted by starjasmine
And, of course, I'm looking for shortcuts. One thing that occurs to me is to work on the tunes you're actually playing. And make sure you can hear the changes and find the chords. A good method is to play the tunes in 12 keys and not going a half step at a time.
Another thought: the goal might be to hear the tune in your mind and have your fingers go to the right place. That can become unconscious -- I don't think players who know 1000 tunes in any key are using internal language that much. I base this on noticing that I can play a line I've heard without much difficulty (if it's not too wild), but I may have to think about my fingers to name the notes. That is, the naming of the sounds is a separable skill, to some extent. That's just time on the instrument, I think. For chords, my best guess is that the 12 key thing is worth working on.
-
Originally Posted by starjasmine
-
Originally Posted by starjasmine
On that original subject, after you learn to recognize basic sonorities (maj, min, alt, dim) as individual "colors" you can learn the distinctive sounds of certain extended chords, as well, including many of the common altered dominant. For example, you probably already can recognize a b7#9 instantly as "that sound."
As for the correction, MM on the b9 does not come from harmonic minor. I think of it as TT sub for a lydian dominant.
If you play MM from the 5th of a dominant, you get a dom7#11 chord. Example: D melodic minor is D E F G A B C# and the G dominant chord built from those notes is G7#11; i.e., a vanilla G dominant with the only altered note being #11.
The TT sub of G7 is Db7. If you analyze the same D melodic minor scale from the Db root, it is MM built on the b9 of Db7. *Thats* where the super-locrian scale comes from. At least, that's how I think of it, not the only way to think of it. If you really want to read eight pages of discussion on this topic you can find a long thread elsewhere on this forum that debates the origin of the alt dom scaleLast edited by starjasmine; 10-13-2022 at 12:26 AM.
-
Originally Posted by starjasmine
for me the signature sound of the altered scale is the b5. The other notes exist within the C harmonic and natural minor scale (it’s common to superimpose lines with a b7 on V7 chords). The b5 I think may be the easiest alteration to hear because it so distinctive- like truffle oil.
It’s also obviously very close to the G half-whole, for which the giveaway is the very distinctive 13b9 chord.
If it sounds less ‘dark’ in a minor key then listen out for the top voice, you probably have b9, #9 or b13. Usually in trad jazz harmony the note is the melody. Otoh b9 gives that dim sound, b13 more augmented and #9 more blues. Obv you do get combinations too, and it can be harder to pick up where extensions are in middle voices.
i find functional ear training rather than intervallic useful for this.
long story short, the G altered scale is really very close to the Cm scales. The main difference is that b2 ‘Neapolitan’ note.
or you can think of it as two notes flat on a natural minor, b1 and b2. That might help you sing and hear it. (Theoretically the scale is a train wreck.)
-
Oh a lot of basic applications of altered and ‘melodic minor’ harmony are based on augmented chords on dominants. So they can be helpful to listen for. Billy Strayhorn, bop era stuff.
-
Hi, J,
My impression from this and other posts in which you have contributed in the past is that you are headed in the right direction with your work schedule. However, the only thing that I believe every working player will tell you is to try to start gigging as soon as possible. Many who give advice here have never played a gig in their life and probably never will. They're bedroom players who have taken an artistic residency on Fantasy Island and pontificate about Art, Theory, etc. without ever having played a paid gig: solo or with other musicians. And, you have an advantage as an organist in that you don't need a group to play a job. If you can play a couple of sets of songs-- knock on doors and find a place that will PAY YOU to play. You'll learn quickly how to cover your mistakes, extend pieces without boredom, and will certainly get many "bright light" moments that will change your playing forever. The rest just takes time. Music is a lifelong journey.
Marinero
-
How to hear chords?
Sit yourself down at your keyboard, play triads and sing the middle note
-
[Having started my ear training regarding chords almost 40 years ago — I think I was the only one in 6th grade who was interested in that little excursion into theory and tried out those tonic, dominant and subdominant inversions on the piano at home —, having started my ear training regarding jazz chords more than 30 years ago, having played 500+ band gigs in my life — many of them paid albeit not much for a ten-piece band —, having played countless jam sessions — albeit rather not jazz until recently — and having worked at 1500+ concerts — which schooled my ears as well — I feel a little qualified
to contribute some general advice:]
Go from simple to more complex.
E.g. start with a simple diatonic turnaround: Cmaj7 A–7 D–7 G7. Substitute with secondary dominants and note and memorize the difference, e.g. A7 instead of A–7 and D7 instead of D–7. Then start with tritone subs until you get to “Tadd Dameron turnaround” variations like Cmaj7 Eb7 Amaj7 Db7 or even Cmaj7 Ebmaj7 Abmaj7 Dbmaj7. Practice all those in all inversions with the closest voice leading available.
Another thing (if you are not doing that already): Play by ear as much as possible. Try to figure out the changes of simpler songs you know rather well from listening but never played before by ear — pop tunes, Beatles, Dylan, Nirvana, Bob Marley, whatever.
-
Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
Root movement
In actual performance, especially with unfamiliar or very slightly known music, hearing the root movement is "forward hearing". Experience and harmonic organization informs one of the possibilities/probabilities of the subsequent roots of the progression. As you work on hearing the root movement, emphasize hearing the forward movement, predict the next change(s).
Chord quality
You should also predict this along with the root movement. The "school" approach of breaking everything down into scale degrees, intervals, chord tones, extensions, alterations, inversions, etc. is analytic; not "on the clock", it is "mediate", like an academic class with a black board, a piano, and lots of time.
Playing with others
In performance your hearing of chord quality must be synthetic; you don't break things apart, you take the whole thing and recognize it as it is, 'immediate", effortless, and resilient (resistant to confusion within varying contexts). Recognizing a particular chord quality comes from encountering it as "unknown", meaning hearing it played by another or a recording. This is why playing with others is so important - they provide the source of the unknown for you to learn to recognize and eventually anticipate.
Progress indications
You will know you are making progress on the right path when your hearing of the root movement includes anticipating the movement ahead and when the recognition of chord quality approaches becoming instant, effortless, and resilient , one step - like recognizing a familiar face. You should extend your goals to include the "forward hearing" of the basic abilities.
-
"I'll have to get back into my singing." Jimmy Smith
Hi, J,
Unless you choose to "comp" your life away playing behind soloists, singing the SONG is the key. There's no harm in singing triads-- however, you get a bigger bang for the buck playing them since they will be etched into your musical/physical memory and are the building blocks for extended chords. And, you must play them fluently in all keys. For the horn man, this is a major journey since there are no patterns, but on guitar/piano, with few exceptions, it's a clear diagram for you to see on the keys/fretboard. So, back to singing: good voice/bad voice . . . singing is the way you will develop your personal style of playing and it will tell you what works and what doesn't with your instrument. And, I have always practiced Dexter Gordon's advice to sing the song and know the lyrics since it does affect your phrasing, intonation, cadences, pacing, etc. How can you play a song you can't sing? Poorly. I hope this helps you.
Marinero
-
Originally Posted by pauln
-
Originally Posted by starjasmine
You are suggesting that hearing root movement and chord quality have to be learned before it becomes real-time. I think it comes naturally, the naming of the elements with learning, but music is intrinsically self revealing. I remember the popular adult music of the late 50s I heard when I was 3 years old. One that I liked a lot started like this...
xx1333 Ebmaj7
x2x133 Bdimb6
x1133 Ebmaj7/Bb
3x134x E/G
2x123x Gbdimb6
1x111x Fm7
x1211x Caug/Bb
1x111x Fm7...
I liked the shift of the second chord, and really liked the off root movement starting from the fourth chord. At that time I knew nothing of roots, chords, or progressions, but I heard these like I do now - by ear, unnamed.
-
@pauln Seems to me we are comparing apples and oranges. I never suggested that this was the only way to learn to hear chords, or that the ability to do one thing is an absolute prerequisite for even beginning to attempt the next thing. I simply laid out the typical university pedagogy. I described my own experience; I did not say that yours might be different.
-
As one learn more tunes, you familiarize yourself with chords and chord progressions.
For exercises, I work on playing melodies with guide tones (so chords only have bass and 3-7 on the two middle strings). Or even just melodies and bass note, to work on hearing chord movement and melody relations. Also arpeggio practice.
$1649- Henriksen Forte Solid State/Tube Hybrid...
Today, 10:37 PM in For Sale