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Hello everyone, after realizing that the company Gibson does not offer any new archtop guitars since some time I wonder why there is no big shout nor any screaming at all.
Do I miss something here or does anyone have more information about what is going on there or why this production stop has taken place and whether or not they will come back with archtop models again someday ?
The company was always and IMO is still regarded as the inventor of archtop guitars therefore I just do not get the point.
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09-10-2024 06:10 AM
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Must be the competition and the market making it harder for them to make good money, compared to their popular models to make it worthwile.
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Get 'em while you can, I suppose. I only have one Gibson archtop - 1995 Gibson Citation. It would be cool to get a tasty L-5 or Super 400 or Byrdland, but I shot my wad on that Citation (but it was worth it). I imagine the Gibson archtops will hold their value in the coming years, but I think burchyk is right that there are plenty of decent quality affordable choices these days.
Tony
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Not to be pedantic, but Orville Gibson is regarded as the inventor of the archtop (the modern one as we know it today) and I think he did that before there was really anything like a company wearing his name.
Originally Posted by fine-instruments
Things change and companies have to sale the winds of fortune. For comparison: Citroen is widely regarded as the inventor of the hydraulic suspension. I strongly doubt they still make the system themselves, and last time I checked production was mostly for 1 or 2 stately British brands.
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You are several years late to the party. Back when Gibson clearly stopped making archtops, there were many loud complaints lodged, but Gibson for now have decided on their strategy, which means no archtops. Originally Posted by fine-instruments
Maybe check past threads and you'll find several long discussions about it.
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Summary: Gibson decided that there is not enough of a market for archtops for them to bear the costs of production.
Just like you can still get horse-drawn carts from specialty makers, you can still get archtops from specialty makers.
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Just a note, Orville technically invented the archtop but Gibson acoustic engineer Lloyd Loar invented the archtop we know today when he designed the L-5 in '22/'23 Originally Posted by RJVB
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there is at least one Gibson L-5 from the year 2022 currently for sale. Therefore I do not feel to be late to the party and the last years it was still possible to order certain models through the Custom shop but it seems these days are gone for ever, puh !
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To be fair, it is a niche market. Not only arent there a lot of players who want arch tops, compared to the number who want an SG or LP, the number who are willing to drop 8-9000 Euro on an instrument (I believe that's what the last batch of L5s went for), is even smaller. Mid priced options have come a long way, and I'm sure that's eating into their market share as well.
Not much to be gained by Gibson
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This was a discussion a couple of years ago. I think people have mostly moved on. Originally Posted by fine-instruments
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I think that Gibson ought to sponsor a comeback tour for Ted Nugent to bring archtops back into the limelight. Anybody up for a bit of Snakeskin Cowboy?
Tony
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Exactly. Also, there are too many just-sitting-in-a-room-mostly-unused archtops today, mostly held by the baby boomer generation. Originally Posted by dconeill
I'm one of them. As we pass on, there will be more and more. There was a thread on this site about what we should do with them, either just before we pass on, or after. Donating them to schools sounds great but how many school-age kids would want to play an archtop?
Bottom line is that there is no market for a major musical company to create new archtops, and there will be way more available vintage archtops then people that would want them. Sad, hell yea, but so is the art of playing 30s - 50s jazz standards.Last edited by jameslovestal; 09-10-2024 at 07:09 PM.
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yes, not even a Byrdland is in the current line-up of Gibson. Too sad to see...
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Solid-body electric guitars can be turned out in volume by relatively untrained machine operators. Acoustic archtop guitars require skilled artisans, and it takes years to learn how to build quality instruments. Solid-body electric guitars can be sold in high volumes compared to archtops. Private equity companies that exist just to harvest money quickly are not interested in long-term projects, they just want to make as much money as possible immediately, and have the lowest possible labor costs while doing it. There just isn't enough short-term profit available in selling archtop guitars to make it attractive to them.
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A bunch of machines and basic workers can turn out simple SB guitars with fairly wide tolerances for quality and consistency. But that's not how top quality SBs are made, even in mass production. Here's a peek at the way PRS does it. This video is a short version of the hour+ presentation, but it captures the essence of guitar making at PRS pretty well. I was fascinated by the body build, which starts at 11 minutes and reaches the CNC mill at about 11:45 in the video. Watching a machine turn a blank board into a PRS body like that is mesmerizing in person. But those people really know what they're doing at every station along the production line. They all seemed very focused on what they were doing, and the care they all displayed toward whatever piece and process they were working on at the time was impressive. Originally Posted by sgosnell
I visited the new factory about a year after it opened (which was in 1996, IIRC) and had a wonderful day. It's well worth the trip if you can do it.
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PRS is not the company under discussion.
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No doubt Gibson would make archtops if guitarists wanted them. But demand for archtops is slight. Godin and Eastman dominate the market. Gibson has no incentive to return to the market it once dominated.
Besides the competition, the demand for new Gibson archtops is undermined by the availability of older examples of the same models, which have higher status among players. The estate sales will continue, ensuring classic Gibson archtops can be found for reasonable prices. If Gibson were to make archtops again, it would be competing with its heritage (and with Heritage, for that matter).
Last edited by Litterick; 09-14-2024 at 05:27 PM.
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So supply and demand. There just isn't enough demand for new Gibson archtops to make it economically feasible to produce them, due to the large supply of Gibson archtops already available, and the cost of producing new ones of acceptable quality.
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Thank you to everyone here for sharing his opinion. I am aware that the demand for archtops was already in a downwards direction back in the 80ties but in the nineties Gibson came back with surprising good quality instruments, thanks to long term veteran workers like James W. Hutchinson. But I fear this time the company has no plans to ever come back for reputation reasons just as they did in the 90ties. This may be explained with profit reasons as most of you argue but the price will be that the knowledge of hand building a very good archtop will also disappear at the Gibson Company. Maybe some day they will regret the decision when they realize that it is not ALL about making money / profit ... but then it will be much too late !
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But it is, especially when your business is investor owned and/or your financial structure is mostly debt. When you have to meet quarterly financial targets, pay out dividends, make loan payments etc, you don’t have the luxury of resting on your laurels. Originally Posted by fine-instruments
Businesses like Gibson, Mercedes, Bessler, Motorola and so many others used to make the best products they could and price them accordingly for a reasonable profit. Discounts were rare. So they could count on the predictability of a stable business model. Two things happened to change that. Markets became flooded with cheaper alternatives (initially from Asia), and “discount stores” became ubiquitous. The 1960s were a critical time for this transition. Gibson, Fender, Motorola, Harley Davidson et al suddenly faced the immediate need to change or die. Enter Norlin, AMF, CBS etc and the race to the bottom began.
The luxury of not being all about profit was gone, and we’re living with the result.
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Making good archtops is hard. The instruments are tempermental and not so versatile. Materials and labor are costly. Purchasers are finicky.
Signal processesing is growing in sophistication. Having a pickup is approaching being mandatory.
Gibson does make this archtop:
Chuck Berry 1955 ES-350T | Gibson
Long ago, I was smitten by the other electrics. Here are two examples.
Nonetheless, a traditional archtop feels like home.
I have had a few early experiences in a dark nightclub, back when smoking and drinking were okay, and listening to a small jazz band in an intimate setting. Then we could walk to another club down the street and start over. Those days are just gone, probably forever. The guitarists always had Gibson full archtops, L-5s if they were lucky.
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It's discontinued. Originally Posted by Marty Grass
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I really don't know where that misconception comes from. IMHO good musical instruments are by definition versatile and I find my own archtop to be almost as versatile as my Cabaret (and TBH, less quirky). A proper acoustic archtop has the kind of immediacy you'd expect from a small-body acoustic (or a classical) while having the depth and "coffre" or a large-body instrument but without the boomyness and cavournish internal chorus/reverb. Originally Posted by Marty Grass
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You're right. We're screwed. Originally Posted by bluenote61
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Feedback is a limiting factor. I tried playing blues gigs with a L-5 and with a Gretsch hollowbody. It's possible but too much of a hassle dodging feedback. Originally Posted by RJVB
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