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I was listening to some music by Esperanza Spalding, Kamasi Washington and Thundercat (among others) recently, and realizing that most of the energy in jazz today comes from the hip-hop influence. Even some more mainstream jazzers like Scofield and John Medeski take some inspiration from hip-hop. Mainstream jazz drumming is, in fact, hip hop drumming, which of course was inspired by many jazz and funk drummers of the 60's like Art Blakey, Tony Williams and Clyde Stubblefield.
In fact, it occurs to me there are many different strands of jazz today, though there is a lot of overlap. A partial listing:
Neo-traditionalists--people whose background is traditional jazz, as inaugurated by Wynton Marsalis, but who may interpret it in a new way. Christian McBride, Joshua Redman, Diana Krall, Anthony Malone, John Pizzarelli, Joey Defrancesco come to mind here.
Prog jazz--this would include Metheny and a lot of the people who played with or were influenced by Miles, such as John McLaughlin, John Scofield, Mike Stern, including newer guys like Ben Monder.
World/alt jazz--kind of a catch-all term for people like Bill Frisell and Julian Lage whose influences are so broad--they often play traditional music but interpret it in a new way. Andrew Bird might fit in here--Chris Thile--Brad Mehldau...
Transcendant jazz--a term for people like Pharoah Sanders, Jonathan Kreisberg and the late Dr. Lonnie Smith, who may have been around awhile but who traffic in a more cosmic language these days.
Hip-hop jazz--artists like the above (Esperanza Spalding, Kamasi Washington and Thundercat) who often collaborate with hip-hop/rap artists and are at home in many genres. Arguably the most energetic of the jazz movements currently going on today.
Acid jazz or trip-hop jazz--Medeski/Martin/Woods, Snarky Puppy, Widespread Panic, Phish, etc.--bands heavily influenced by psychedelia and the jam band movement and the more out there work of McLaughlin and Coryell.
Anyway, not that it means anything, but this is the way my brain works. I always like to categorize things and draw musical family trees.
Anybody have other thoughts or suggestions?
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04-20-2022 05:21 PM
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the music industry
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I have a suggestion; stop over thinking it and just listen to the music.
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Au contraire, I LISTEN to the music and then I think about it and where it fits into the larger jazz picture. Just like you might see a Francis Bacon painting and wonder where it fits into the larger world of art.
Originally Posted by jameslovestal
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There's a lot of it ... but I always go back to Miles and Coltrane.
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How does that hip hop thing work, in terms of hip hop being completely on the grid, done in pro tools, with no swing? And jazz players are trained to play with swing, so how does it work together? Genuine question, and Im not being anti hip hop here.
Im thinking of the Roots, they seem to swing a little bit.
Or do they use more shuffle settings when making beats in this new jazzy hip hop?
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I didn't think jazz HAD to swing. Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
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Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
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The labels are useful in that you if you don't like a specific type of Jazz, you can save yourself an hour in traffic, parking fees, getting a babysitter, and any other woes that can accompany going out to a "Jazz" concert and you find out it is "Death Metal Jazz." This is a true story from a friend of mine. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
Some music lovers can listen to anything and everything. Others (and you can put me in this group) have specifics likes and dislikes, and too little time to throw away on a dislike. Then, there are times when I have to be in the mood for a certain type of live Jazz, like Smooth Jazz or Big Band Jazz. It is good to have an idea what I am spending my money and precious time on.
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Well there are different types of hip-hop, and I'm certainly no expert, but the stuff I listen to that I like is played by real drummers and does swing. All modern players are influenced by hip-hop. Nobody plays in Buddy Guy mode anymore. Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
It's really the interplay between bass and drums that makes today's music sound modern. Medeski Martin Woods for instance, or Lindner Lefebre Giuliani, or the Roots, or Thundercat and his brother Ronald Bruner.
Here's the great Chuck Brown with 2 drummers and a percussionist...James Brown influence is very strong here.
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"All modern players are influenced by hip-hop" is a bold claim.
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Yep I know. Bold is my middle name. Originally Posted by Litterick
I started noticing over the last few years how nobody plays a simple straight line anymore like Elvin Jones or Jimmy Cobb. They all play highly complicated syncopations. Listen to Billy Martin or Mark Giuliana for instance. It's got hip hop rhythms all over it.
Of course hip hop didn't start that beat, they "borrowed" it from funk who borrowed it from Art Blakey and Roy Haynes and other great jazz drummers, as well as African polyrhythms which were showing up in rock music in the 70's/80's.
Let me put it this way--who is playing straight ahead drums these days?
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Didn't Joe Zee claim to have invented the Hip-hop beat with this tune? -
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Well I love Joe Z as much as the next guy, but I don’t think he invented a lot. He stole, uh, appropriated, a lot of stuff over the years. Which is what most successful artists do. Originally Posted by James W
He was certainly into world rhythms big time and very influential on today’s crop of jazzers.
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Interesting, but an aside point - doesn't that youtube video has some of the worst audio? Full of lossy encoding artifacts. Pity as I might have listened to it all otherwise. Originally Posted by James W
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Once you label me you negate me - Soren Kierkegaard
Kamasi Washington is so far removed from Hip Hop. And he produces fabulous music, that even I who begrudge anything after 1964, had to give props too. I discovered his music via a soundtrack of the Spy Thriller series Homeland. I spent a day trying to track the music down because I didn’t know the name of the Artist. Was I ever grateful to discover him. Stop your labeling. You just might discover something new.
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"And he produces fabulous music, that even I who begrudge anything after 1964, had to give props to.....Stop your labeling. You just might discover something new."
Nothing after '64 but that?
Whoa, talk about labeling!
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That’s not labeling. It’s a period of time whereby jazz music had a long and well established run of very solid music from literally many hundreds of groups producing some of the finest music on the planet. Originally Posted by wintermoon
"And he produces fabulous music, that even I who begrudge anything after 1964, had to give props to.....Stop your labeling. You just might discover something new."
Nothing after '64 but that?
Whoa, talk about labeling!
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Cool write up and I agree. Jazz musicians may have their heart in a traditional or certain area, but if they want to work, they have to adapt to jazz today - some of which technically isn't jazz in my view. I think the definition of jazz is the phenomenon of the harmonically fluid melodies interacting with changes and the tune. I think if the music doesn't have that then it's really a tangent or a different style altogether. Just my opinion. Lot of overlapping in music today and things move on and leave the old behind. This is my teacher's new album from this year. He put a diverse set of tunes on there but it falls under jazz pretty much.
You can find straight ahead jazz, but you're right, I think all the pros are mixing stuff up and not at all playing straight ahead exclusively. It's not all hip hop tho. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
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This is a good example. This isn't jazz (this specific clip anyway). There's almost no harmonic content at all. It's rap or funk. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
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You're leaving quite a few prime yrs out from just the mid 60s to the early early 70s alone if you cut things off @ '64. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
I'd suggest checking out some later music instead of setting a cut-off year, you'll probably be pleasantly surprised.
For example, Miles 2nd quintet w Herbie and Tony was just formed the yr before, Lee Morgan, Hank Mobley et all were putting out some outstanding Blue Note dates and soul jazz was really kicking into gear from then until the early 70s.
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'Harmonically fluid melodies' is too vague, could describe all kinds of music, not just jazz. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
Also, your definition omits the two crucial aspects of jazz: a) improvisation and b) some sense of swing. I realise that this is quite a broad definition which could include some forms of blues; but anyway, improv and swing are the two ingredients that define jazz for me at least...
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Joe Zee was enormously influential right at the beginning of fusion and through the decades thereafter... Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
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Jazz is the only genre where there's constant interaction of improvising melody with the harmony. Other genres do it to some degree but jazz is the only one that does it consistently with groove involved. Classical does it but it isn't to a groove. Styles of rock do it but it is more modal based and inconsistent. Swing is a building block but any groove can be used and if you have constant interaction of melody with harmony set to groove, then it's jazz. Originally Posted by James W
So yes, I agree about the improv. Disagree that swing is essential although it was/is a huge part of the tradition. I say you need 3 elements and if you don't have all 3 consistently then it's a tangent or different genre. 1. improv. 2. melody progressing with harmony. 3. set to groove.Last edited by Bobby Timmons; 04-22-2022 at 03:57 AM.
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Who indeed? But as you say, the hip hop beats are borrowed. The vocal stylings and that thing they do with records are more original. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
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