How to make roundwound strings sound like flatwounds?

[buduranus2]

I like the sound of flatwounds but they're hard for me to play because I can't get any traction on them with the pick. Recently I put some blue painter's tape on the wound strings near the bridge. That seemed to get me relatively close. I was hoping to see if anyone has experimented around with other methods and what your results were.

[mr. beaumont]

because I can't get any traction on them with the pick.

Can you explain that a bit more? That sounds like a good thing to me.

What kind of pick are you using now?

[buduranus2]

Can you explain that a bit more? That sounds like a good thing to me.

What kind of pick are you using now?

Hey Jeff, good to hear from you. Well, to back it up a bit my last jazz box had TI Bensons on it. They were muy fabuloso! After about a month or two they broke in very nicely and for three years after that they never changed in tone, response or tension. Well worth the cost. Only problem for me was that my pick (Jazz III Eric Johnson red) kept "slipping" off them. I hold the pick at an angle to the strings so that the edge, rather than the tip, of the pick makes contact with the strings. At this late date I'm afraid I can't change that.

I tried breaking in a set of roundwounds for two months hoping to at least get a deader sound, but no luck. In desperation I cut some small strips of blue paper painter's tape about 3/4" and gently placed them on the wound strings near the bridge. I found that different strings preferred slightly different placement. Once I got them where I wanted I pressed the sides together. It was a major improvement. So that's always an option, but I wanted to see if there was a more "elegant" solution. After all that, alas, I still can't solo over rhythm changes at 200 bpm.

[mr. beaumont]

Have you thought about trying a different pick? Those red 3's are slippery...

[buduranus2]

Have you thought about trying a different pick? Those red 3's are slippery...

Gee, I hate to tell off on myself but I've been using them for at least 45 years. That said, they rough-up pretty good after a while. BTW I found a clip where a bassist put hand lotion on his strings and they sounded very (somewhat) close to flats. I'll give that a try and report back.

[starjasmine]

Hmmm... now that I've learned to edge pick I LOVE it, particularly the way that the pick does not catch on the strings nearly as much. I would suggest experimenting with pick grip and angle a bit more. I've found that very minor adjustments can make a huge difference. For example, a slight rotation of the pick* will give you less edge, which could solve the "slipping" issue that you mention.

Is the Paul Gilbert "scratch" integral to your technique? Lack of that scratch sounds like what you are describing. Pick scratch is another thing that I try to avoid (even though it sure does work for PG!) because I don't want to hear that scratch when playing with a clean tone.

You might also try to change your settings on the guitar and amp to approximate a flatwound sound with roundwound strings. Kreisberg uses roundwounds and he has a wonderful jazz tone. He sets vol and tone on the guitar at 10 and shapes tone at the amp (and of course with his fingers.) I *think* he uses the neck pickup only, as vol/tone on 10 with the tail pickup would make for a REALLY bright sound... but I can't recall precisely. I do remember the "V/T on 10 and shape tone at the amp" because it made a big impression on me as being something I haven't heard many other players recommend.

And you could also try some outboard EQ.

I play rounds on most guitars and flats on my archtop. I find that I'm able to get a good jazz tone (which is subjective, of course) from light-ish gauge rounds (009-042) or flats (014 - 067) but the way I do that varies a bit according to the guitar, the amp, the strings themselves (new, old, brand, gauge - you can dig in a lot more on heavier strings) and the "x factor" that is the room itself... i.e. your perfect tone in rehearsal can go out the window and require major tweaking in a different venue or with a different band.

Putting tape on your strings sounds like a way to gunk up your strings and the finish on your guitar, but... it's your guitar! If it works for you, go for it.

IDK whether you can get heat-shrink tubing that is thin enough, but that might give you the same effect minus the adhesive. Of course, you'd have to install the tubing before installing the strings, to avoid damaging your guitar with a heat gun. Maybe try that once you find the right placement by using tape. Let us know if you try this and what you think of it!

HTH

SJ

PS - I'm using a Dunlop Jazz III red 1.38 mm after hearing Martin Miller rave about it in one of those Troy G interviews. I really like it a lot, and have no probs with slipping. IDK if that is the same one that Eric J uses. Full disclosure: I am still working out a few details about my new approach to picking, but the new approach (and new pick) is working very well for me about six months in.

* Imagine that there is a clock face on the top of your guitar. If you rotate the pick counter-clockwise, its face will become more parallel to the strings: more face, less edge in your picking.

[buduranus2]

Hmmm... now that I've learned to edge pick I LOVE it, particularly the way that the pick does not catch on the strings nearly as much. I would suggest experimenting with pick grip and angle a bit more. I've found that very minor adjustments can make a huge difference. For example, a slight rotation of the pick will give you less edge, which could solve the "slipping" issue that you mention.

Is the Paul Gilbert "scratch" integral to your technique? Lack of that scratch sounds like what you are describing. Pick scratch is another thing that I try to avoid (even though it sure does work for PG!) because I don't want to hear that scratch when playing with a clean tone.

You might also try to change your settings on the guitar and amp to approximate a flatwound sound with roundwound strings. Kreisberg uses roundwounds and he has a wonderful jazz tone. He sets vol and tone on the guitar at 10 and shapes tone at the amp (and of course with his fingers.) I *think* he uses the neck pickup only, as vol/tone on 10 with the tail pickup would make for a REALLY bright sound... but I can't recall precisely. I do remember the "V/T on 10 and shape tone at the amp" because it made a big impression on me as being something I haven't heard many other players recommend.

And you could also try some outboard EQ.

I play rounds on most guitars and flats on my archtop. I find that I'm able to get a good jazz tone (which is subjective, of course) from light-ish gauge rounds (009-042) or flats (014 - 067) but the way I do that varies a bit according to the guitar, the amp, the strings themselves (new, old, brand, gauge - you can dig in a lot more on heavier strings) and the "x factor" that is the room itself... i.e. your perfect tone in rehearsal can go out the window and require major tweaking in a different venue or with a different band.

Putting tape on your strings sounds like a way to gunk up your strings and the finish on your guitar, but... it's your guitar! If it works for you, go for it.

IDK whether you can get heat-shrink tubing that is thin enough, but that might give you the same effect minus the adhesive. Of course, you'd have to install the tubing before installing the strings, to avoid damaging your guitar with a heat gun. Maybe try that once you find the right placement by using tape. Let us know if you try this and what you think of it!

HTH

SJ

PS - I'm using a Dunlop Jazz III red 1.38 mm after hearing Martin Miller rave about it in one of those Troy G interviews. I really like it a lot, and have no probs with slipping. IDK if that is the same one that Eric J uses. Full disclosure: I am still working out a few details about my new approach to picking, but the new approach (and new pick) is working very well for me about six months in.

Gotta laugh at the Paul Gilbert reference. Since I started this thread a little while ago I did experiment with changing the angle of the pick to the strings. I'd have to have my guitar up pretty high to do that and that puts the lower frets out in left field.

I actually have a very nice amp that's well-suited to clean jazz playing. It's a Yamaha G100-III head with a custom cab housing a JBL 12 and a JBL 10 in isolated "compartments." The G100 has a parametric EQ that I use judiciously to even out the LF response. I use the neck pickup exclusively and have found that the volume control acts as a low-pass filter, so I can balance the response with that, the pickup height, pole pieces and the amp itself.

As for tape gunking up the strings, remember I specified blue painter's tape, which is very low adhesive. Plus I had put that down by the bridge, out of picking range. Heat shrink tubing is a little overboard for me. Right now, though, I have a low E string "absorbing" some moisturizing cream. I dunno, we'll see. Anyhoo, I very much appreciate your reply and I'll post what results I get when I get them.

p.s. I bought a gross of Jazz III's at the 1980 NAMM Show. I can say with some authority that the formulation was noticeably different then. They felt "drier" somehow. The current ones are more slippery by comparison. I don't care what their marketing department says.

[sgosnell]

I'd like to know the opposite. How to make flatwound strings sound like roundwounds. As it is, I just use roundwounds and get on with life.

[buduranus2]

I'd like to know the opposite. How to make flatwound strings sound like roundwounds. As it is, I just use roundwounds and get on with life.

GHS Brite Flats:

[nyc chaz]

GHS Brite Flats:

I tried those strings and thought they were awful.Hex core made them too stiff feeling.

[sgosnell]

Brite does not necessarily equal bright. Marketing hype is just that. I've tried a lot of flatwound strings, and none of them sound like roundwounds. I'm not a fan of dead-sounding strings. There are plenty of players who are, and I don't try to compete with them for the flatwound strings on the market.

[starjasmine]

As for tape gunking up the strings, remember I specified blue painter's tape, which is very low adhesive. Plus I had put that down by the bridge, out of picking range.

I guess I misinterpreted the purpose of the tape. I thought it was supposed to give your pick some traction. I guess you are really trying to deaden the strings a bit.

I sometimes hear ringing from the string between the saddle and the trapeze when I play my archtop acoustically and it bugs me, so I took a piece of felt that was about a half-inch wide and several inches long and weaved it in between the strings in that location. No more ringing.

Maybe something like that or a hair scrunchy would work to remove some high end from roundwounds.

Or perhaps something like this would do the trick:

Guitar Bass String Mute Dampener Neoprene Foam Strip Noise Reducer Silencer Fit for Electric Wood Acoustic Guitar Bass Musical Instruments Accessory

[ccroft]

From the Amazon page : 'This guitar mute silencer can effectively weaken the sound...'

These Asian company blurbs crack me up sometimes. Prospective buyer: 'My guitar just sounds way too robust. I really have to find a way to get a more feeble tone. This looks like just the ticket!"

[sgosnell]

Another way to mute the strings between the bridge and tailpiece is to use grommets. It only takes three, although some people use more. I have one guitar which needs them, and they hide under the wooden part of the tailpiece, so they're not too unsightly.

[Runepune]

I wanted my solid body to sound more like an archtop, so I cut a strip from a cotton sock and did two-three rounds in between the strings by the bridge. Sounded nice