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I have a problem with regards to learning jazz guitar and its been bugging me for a while. There is just so many facets to jazz guitar, one could spend a lifetime on a single tune and never really be done with it. At least with Classical Guitar (in my experience) once you got the piece of music down you move on to another piece. Sometimes one will go back to the previous piece just so to keep the repertoire intact but with jazz its like...
how do you know you know a tune? What does knowing a tune really mean?
There's melody
- Chords/Form
- improv
- endless amount of solos from great players to transcribe
- 12 keys
- an abundance of different possible string sets one could limit oneself
- Different positional systems
- different improv concepts
- chord melody
(sorry I'm evil)
- chord solos
- counterpoint
- Playing with a group
- Reading
- Voice Leading
etc etc
And of course one could mix some of these things with others so there is no end point really. Maybe I should just stick with classical guitar... I'm too dumb for this
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06-13-2024 05:37 PM
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You didn't mention rhythm.
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Blast it! Foiled again
Originally Posted by emanresu
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You have to start easily, simply. Reading your list, I agree, it seems an insurmountable task. But the task isn't to master it all in one go, obviously.
First get some chords (not ALL chords!) then find out what/how to play over them. You can google that. Do it on a few tunes you like (not just any tune, and not advanced ones like Donna Lee, but ones that resonate with you, that you like, that you really want to do).
Then maybe find out how to play a fairly simple tune by playing a melody on top of your chords, i.e. try some chord melody. That can also be googled.
There are lessons available on this very website:
Free Jazz Guitar Lessons
Leave advanced theory alone, just get the basics down, then you can go on from there. Don't forget it's better to play just one thing beautifully than mess your way through stuff you haven't really grasped.
You'll know when you know a tune, you won't have to ask.
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It's indeed a process that requires proficiency in many different areas and in an environment like this forum, it's going to be even more "noisy" hearing the clarity that's required to engage yourself with what is needed and to be true to ONE course of priorities.
This is why a GOOD teacher is important, if not essential: A good teacher has been there and a good teacher can give you permission not to worry about too much at one time. A good teacher will also provide you with enjoyable activities through which you can find your own mastery and fit those elements into the larger picture.
I ask my students "What do you love about the music that makes you want to own it?" Know what moves you and go from there. Own something that gives you a taste of mastery and build from that. Be patient.
If you find a teacher and you don't find it a satisfying experience, be patient and question them. If you can't find a truth you can relate to, find someone who can guide you.
There are a lot of people here in this forum room, most at different levels of ability and differing revelations that are true to them at the moment. If you're not relating to that moment, it's noise.
Listen to the music and learn a little about what your inspirational sources are touching you with, and see if you can find the things to ask that will compel you to answer more questions.
Listen to live music. It's inspiring.
Talk to musicians at live gigs. They are there in the world you want to know. They will know things you can't learn in a book or on the forum.
Love the music and immerse yourself in it. Remember that the masters once knew as little or less than you do now. Always find the things to enjoy and have fun with at every step of the way.
You'll get there if you want it.
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But... all the chords tho! Just kidding and thanks for the advice. I even resorted to Chat GPT way back then to enlighten me about this and I pretty much got the standard fare answers that I forgot about anyways. I'll see what I can do Originally Posted by ragman1
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Rhythm is happiness. A pure one. Originally Posted by jazznylon
Blast it! Foiled again
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I agree. That's why I work jazz bluez and a handful of easy tunes constantly so I can work up all the different topics. Then I have deeper rep on the horizon.
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It certainly can be overwhelming, but it doesn't have to. To solo: Originally Posted by jazznylon
You need a song to play.
You need to be able to scat sing a solo you like.
You need to be able to play that solo on the guitar in real time.
So, you learn some songs from recordings or charts. Or write your own.
Then you scat sing. If you can't do that, you can work on it. Best to get it from recordings.
And you practice playing random stuff (like everything you hear on TV when you're couch-noodling) until you can play what's in your mind.
And, there you have it.
Comping is more complicated because it's multiple notes at a time. I'll leave that for another post.
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If you're not playing professionally.
Just enjoy playing songs you like.
And, have fun.
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I'm still working on some of the very first jazz songs I started with in 1974. Originally Posted by jazznylon
There are others of course!
AFAIK some of the deepest classical players ever never let go of Bach, Dowland and Villa Lobos. Originally Posted by jazznylon
Honestly, I'm not worried about that. Originally Posted by jazznylon
That's not a judgment on you. You worry about whatever you need to.
No doubt everybody has their own answer. Originally Posted by jazznylon
I feel like I 'know' a tune when I can play the head and changes accurately without reading.
At that point I know -- I know -- I'm ready to listen, get out of my head and play in the moment.
Phrased otherwise, at that point I'm ready to play jazz on it.
I'm just an advanced-beginner jazz guitarist. Most posters here know lots more than me and you can tell that in their playing.
Even so, I'm ready to explore.
It might be on the level of that old joke: "I've suffered for my art; now it's your turn!"
But again, even so I'm ready to explore.
Do whatever makes you happy. If putting limits on your music makes you happy I'm not going to stop you. Originally Posted by jazznylon
But fundamentally, right now you are ready to play in the moment and find joy playing in the moment.
There's plenty of time to learn that demolished chord later. The time to play in the moment is now!
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I would second every word of this. Originally Posted by Sam Sherry
I want to reply in some detail but there's a lot here.
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I agree there is no end point in learning a classical piece. I once asked my classical guitar teacher from way back how long should I be expected to work on a certain etude? He says my entire life so yeah..
With Jazz there is much greater emphasis on improv, compounded with the complexities of the guitar the net cast extends even farther. No one expects a classical guitarist to play a villa lobos piece in 12 keys (weird example I know). The sky is not even the limit at this point, there are too many choices
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Quite. That's why you should cut down and simplify. It's not difficult if that's what you want. Originally Posted by jazznylon
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I heard that there are a some awesome classical guitar players who don't really care to learn a new bunch of pieces every year.
Instead they are touring the world with stuff they have been playing for decades.
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BTW. I don't wanna be rude but "enjoy!", "have fun" are the worst kind of advice for such topic.
Well, rude it was.
But truly, "enjoy"... what?
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I believe that's called "resting on your laurels." Originally Posted by emanresu
The challenge, you will not stick with it if you do not enjoy it. Originally Posted by emanresu
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Actually, you can do fine if you're able to play in the most common keys, the 12 keys approach is primarily a practice regimen rather than a performance necessity. Originally Posted by jazznylon
Gee, I've never even heard of that chord, could you please spell it out? Originally Posted by Sam Sherry
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Yes, we all have things that motivate us, and we all have things that dissuade and sway us that it's not worth the effort. Originally Posted by emanresu
I have a lot of friends who have found their calling in music, whether they gig or not. I have met students who have decided it was not what they imagined and given up. The big difference being that those who have a passion for the music love it. They find satisfaction and self engagement and a sense that they are growing, learning and coming closer to a deep feeling of understanding something with total engagement. And that process is enjoyable to a degree that they rarely find in other pursuits.
In a conversation I had with Bill Frisell we talked about the last time he found something that changed the way he saw his instrument, the last time he felt it was a totally new instrument. He said "About 15 minutes ago. I'm always finding something new and it makes everything fresh." That's enjoying the process.
It's a feeling of conquering new ideas and the fulfillment of mystery solved. It's a feeling of engagement. This in enjoyment of a process that is the artistic experience. How or why would someone subject themselves to time on the instrument if there was no sense of engagement or satisfaction? How many people would take up and stick with self discipline of learning to play well if it had the same sense of detachment that working at a fast food restaurant holds?
Maybe you don't feel this. We're all different and I will assume your own process will lead you to achieve what you seek to accomplish. We're different that way.
I had a long talk with Jules (Julian Lage) and we were talking about what motivated him and what he does when a student finds motivation elusive or irrelevant. He said "I couldn't do it if I didn't love it. Every experience enriches the experience of knowing and sharing this ability to play music. My love came from love of music through my familiy. They're inseparable. The process is not about scales or arpeggios but feeling and hearing something that I have the ability to express. That comes from a passion that comes from inside me."
Translation to me: I do it because I love it. I wouldn't do it if I didn't enjoy it.
When I teach, it's very important that a student finds something they can find an engagement in, a personal connection from which the quest for detail informs. Call it fun.
That's the way I see music. What drives you if you don't find it enjoyable, emanresu? I suspect it's not to enjoy. What is your motivator? I am genuinely curious.
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It is too late now to get serious.
I'll think about it for a day.
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I don’t see the point of playing music, or painting, or doing anything else unless you’re shooting for something good on some level. I don’t see the enjoyment otherwise. To me, improvement brings enjoyment. And it doesn’t have to be dramatic. But unfortunately, improvement requires work. Originally Posted by emanresu
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Simplify. I play some tunes over and over for years because I love them. Then they drop out of my routine and I start forgetting. So I remember that I used to love this song and start playing again. I'm not concerned with playing them in all 12 keys. I used to do some of that. I play Green Dolphin Street in Eb. That's the standard acceptable key. Also C mainly because that's how The Real Book wrote it. Jazz is fantastic because it's self expression. It's not like playing classical pieces because, within certain boundaries, the note and rhythm selections are yours alone. This gives me endless hours of fun and creativity.
I know a song when I can play it and not have to think about it. I just play it. I can visualize the fretboard. I LOOK but I don't think. There's no internal dialogue going on. No mental hiccups like "huh?" Where am I going? Is the next chord a dominant? Should I try some weird substitution or modulation? What's the bridge again? What would happen if I go all modal or play super chromatic? Nope. It just happens when you allow it to happen. THINKING slows the process of music to a crawl.
But you know you have to put in the years of study to be able to get to that point. In order to forget all that shit and just play you first have to learn it inside out so you can forget it. You can't forget what you never learned. And for me that took simplifying and being selective on what I was studying and why.
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Don't work on things to check off a list of things to work on. Listen to music that inspires you and makes you want to learn, and learn those things.
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Originally Posted by jazznylon
"It doesn't take intelligence to be a Jazz musician; there's plenty of proof of that around!" Hal Galper
Beware searching the internet for help on things... even this Forum's free lessons section has some things that must have been written by a non-guitarist or AI, e.g., How To String A Guitar, Section 2 reassures you that removing all the strings for a string change is fine and won't break the neck, but then instructs putting on the new 6th string all by itself and tuning it up to concert pitch followed by a few cycles of physical stretching and re-tuning to pitch...?!!
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Man, some great discussion in this thread. The OP captures the challenge of jazz, which is that the study of it is infinite. When you listen to jazz masters talking about their process, it's very common for them to say something like "I just learned something new earlier today." Even though they've been at the top of the game for 30 years. That continual discovery and renewal is part of what keeps the study of jazz captivating.
We can only be where we are at any given moment. I think Hal Galper's video really encapsulate something very important: if you can't hear it, you can't play it. I was taking some classes with Gene Bertoncini at a jazz camp, he approached it from a slightly different angle: if you can sing it, you can play it. Those are two sides of the same coin. All the work we do in the practice room is ultimately to improve our hearing and listening to be able to express the music. We don't learn scales and modes and melodies to be able to mechanically reproduce them, them to be able to hear them and expand the range of our expression.
I've been doing this since 1979 and still feel like a beginner every time I am confronted with some new challenge to learn- with all that entails: interest, excitement, frustration, sometimes feeling of ineptitude, sometimes feelings of elation, etc.
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