Do you play the alternating bassline on a bossa with bass player?

[jobabrinks]

Pretty simple question, so I expect a pretty simple answer.

I don't have a teacher at the moment.

Do you play the alternating part of the bossa on the 1 and 3 on say (any Jobim tune), or do you just playing the rootless chord voicing and let the bass player do it?

[mr. beaumont]

I would not alternate, though in the interest of keeping the lowest note on the sixth string, my chords my have a fifth on the bottom.

[Christian Miller]

Pretty simple question, so I expect a pretty simple answer.

I don't have a teacher at the moment.

Do you play the alternating part of the bossa on the 1 and 3 on say (any Jobim tune), or do you just playing the rootless chord voicing and let the bass player do it?

Solo - Not so much these days. Just a subtle accent on 3. Bass on 6th string, so some chords inverted. But as long as the bassline is strong…

Gilberto didn’t do it, so I don’t.

In a band I try to ghost the note a bit. Sometimes I break things up more.

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[AllanAllen]

Let the bass play the bass. Covering all the parts just because you can is what piano players do.

[Bobby Timmons]

Be creative. If you want to accent that pattern, then do something chordally with it or counter it somehow. Don't double the exact bass part, that's already taken care of.

[rpjazzguitar]

If the bassist is doing the same thing, it can work to double the bass line. Antonio Aldofo talks about it in his book.

If the bass is unpredictable it might still work, because the alternating bass on quarter notes (in 2/4) is still part of the layered groove -- it's there in the bossa rhythm whether somebody is playing it explicitly, or not (edit: actually, it will be heard at least in the accents of the 16th note pulse (in 2/4) from a shaker, hi hat, pandeiro or tamborim). But, you risk conflict.

If you don't play alternating bass, you still have to figure out what to play. If you listen to Bossa Nova, you find that there is a lot of variation among great players. Open Studio's Brazilian package has some nice demos, including a different way to comp it. I think one of the videos may be available for free as a sample.

Historically, from what I've read, the guitar style was developed in Rio apartments around 1960, without bass.

[Bop Head]

Beyond your question:

For authentic bossa you have to alternate the bass correctly (in case you do not know it already). It's described in this masterclass IIRC how the alternating bossa bass was derived from the groove of the surdo (deepest samba drum).

[Lionelsax]

Both.

[rpjazzguitar]

Oscar Castro Neves, bossa nova giant. Does it different ways.

[Christian Miller]

If the bassist is doing the same thing, it can work to double the bass line. Antonio Aldofo talks about it in his book.

If the bass is unpredictable it might still work, because the alternating bass on quarter notes (in 2/4) is still part of the layered groove -- it's there in the bossa rhythm whether somebody is playing it explicitly, or not (edit: actually, it will be heard at least in the accents of the 16th note pulse (in 2/4) from a shaker, hi hat, pandeiro or tamborim). But, you risk conflict.

If you don't play alternating bass, you still have to figure out what to play. If you listen to Bossa Nova, you find that there is a lot of variation among great players. Open Studio's Brazilian package has some nice demos, including a different way to comp it. I think one of the videos may be available for free as a sample.

Historically, from what I've read, the guitar style was developed in Rio apartments around 1960, without bass.

Thanks for that, interesting. Tbh I go with what feels natural, but the bass notes can jump out a bit sometimes.

I remember hearing Guinga perform with percussion and sax and no bass. It sounded absolutely complete.


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[Sam Sherry]

Let the bass play the bass. Covering all the parts just because you can is what piano players do.

I'm a 50+ year bassist and I approve this message.

[rpjazzguitar]

Thanks for that, interesting. Tbh I go with what feels natural, but the bass notes can jump out a bit sometimes.

I remember hearing Guinga perform with percussion and sax and no bass. It sounded absolutely complete.


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Guinga is an amazing guitarist and composer. He can play anything, but I don't think he often plays straight Bossa Nova. He is not a jazz player and does not improvise single note lines.

He is a world class GASB chord melody player -- he can rattle off an astonishing chord melody off the cuff and then, if asked, do an equally good one in a distant key. Each of them will employ open strings for controlled dissonance -- differently, of course, because of the key change.

[Christian Miller]

Guinga is an amazing guitarist and composer. He can play anything, but I don't think he often plays straight Bossa Nova. He is not a jazz player and does not improvise single note lines.

He is a world class GASB chord melody player -- he can rattle off an astonishing chord melody off the cuff and then, if asked, do an equally good one in a distant key. Each of them will employ open strings for controlled dissonance -- differently, of course, because of the key change.

Of course, no of course Guinga is not playing 1960s Bossa Nova. I meant it more in the sense that Guinga’s style is clearly building on the Brazilian music of the past, and the sense of bassline is really strong in those guitar styles. You can of course say the same about Chorinhos, where the bass and rhythm guitar duties have been combined into the modern seven string style.


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[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Do you play the alternating part of the bossa on the 1 and 3 on say (any Jobim tune), or do you just playing the rootless chord voicing and let the bass player do it?

A straight two beat from bass and guitar makes most bossas sound like polkas to me. The rhythm of the guitar comping is usually syncopated, like *xx*xxx*|*xxxx*xx| or *x*xx*x*|*x*xx*xx| . The best patterns also fit the tempo and the melody line.

[rpjazzguitar]

A straight two beat from bass and guitar makes most bossas sound like polkas to me. The rhythm of the guitar comping is usually syncopated, like *xx*xxx*|*xxxx*xx| or *x*xx*x*|*x*xx*xx| . The best patterns also fit the tempo and the melody line.

I've heard the polka thing happen when the notes are not placed and accented in the Brazilian way. The first quarter note is played softly and more staccato. The second quarter is louder, longer and placed on top of the beat. To my ear, the polka two is played just a bit earlier.

Even the 16th note pulse played with just a shaker, sounds different when a Brazilian percussionist plays it. In the case of the 16th note pulse an issue is that they aren't played evenly. When you watch a Brazilian expert, you may see that they don't shake it directly back and forth, but make a kind of oval trajectory that nails the correct pulse.

With the properly accented shaker and surdo (one TWO, one TWO) you can hear the samba/bossa groove. It's a good way for a band to practice it, since it's foundational. That is, start with those two elements (hi hat and bass would be one way) and make sure they have ginga (Brazilian swing) before you add the next part.

[Christian Miller]

Bosco (great percussionist) had a thing about everything comes from polka. Though he was talking about Choro. But ragtime, jazz, country too.

The two beat alternating bass thing is pretty universal

To make it sound Brazilian you need to get the feel right. I think playing in a batteria helps, even badly. The thumb is the Surdo.


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[rpjazzguitar]

If you notate the alternating bass in different styles, e.g. Samba, country, polka, whatever, the notation will look the same. Quarter notes if you write in 2/4.

But, if you put each style into a wave form, the accents will be slightly different, is my guess. Both in amplitude and in placement-in-time.

The amount of displacement from the metronome, measured in milliseconds, will vary dependent on tempo.

Which means, you can't notate it with perfect accuracy. Every tempo will be just a little bit different.

I have seen this proven, with wave forms, for the samba "fork", 16th, 8th, 16ths. I suspect it will be true even for the bass notes.