The Dorian Mode

**Sailor** · 08-13-2012, 09:58 PM

Hope this question doesn't bother anyone

Why are m7 chords assumed to be Dorian primarily. Like all Aebersold books, like the first choice of solo over a tune like So What, etc...

I realize if m7 goes to Dom7 then Tonic, obviously II-V-I. Then I see why Dorian. But in a modal tune like So What why is the assumption Dorian and not Aeolian....couldn't it be VI instead of II??

And why isn't Aeolian played over m7 when it is totally diatonic to parent scale??

Sailor

**ten left thumbs** · 08-14-2012, 03:42 AM

So What is a tune written in dorian mode.

For a ii-V-I, I just think what key I'm in. I don't bother thinking dorian, mixolydian, ionian. That's not modes, just madness!

**ColinO** · 08-14-2012, 06:52 AM

I'm not much of a theorist, but I imagine that So What is basically dorian because the Dm7 is preceded by an Em7 which implies that Dm7 is a II and not a VI - otherwise the E would be m7b5. Also the melody is in D dorian and not in D natural minor or the B in the melody would have been a Bb.

I actually don't agree with your premise. I don't think that m7 is assumed to be dorian. It IS dorian in So What. It is "aeolean" in other songs like Blue Bossa for example. I wouldn't assume m7 to be anything out of context.

**smp** · 08-14-2012, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by ColinO

I'm not much of a theorist, but I imagine that So What is basically dorian because the Dm7 is preceded by an Em7 which implies that Dm7 is a II and not a VI - otherwise the E would be m7b5. Also the melody is in D dorian and not in D natural minor or the B in the melody would have been a Bb.

I actually don't agree with your premise. I don't think that m7 is assumed to be dorian. It IS dorian in So What. It is "aeolean" in other songs like Blue Bossa for example. I wouldn't assume m7 to be anything out of context.

It's a good question?

But there is no Em7 in the tune. It just raises a half step to Ebm7 which is not the III chord. So it can't be worked out diatonically. If the melody is dorian then would that be what determines that it's a II chord and not a III or VI?

**ColinO** · 08-14-2012, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by smp

It's a good question?

But there is no Em7 in the tune. It just raises a half step to Ebm7 which is not the III chord. So it can't be worked out diatonically. If the melody is dorian then would that be what determines that it's a II chord and not a III or VI?

I'm talking about the Em7 that I at least normally play just before the Dm7 when comping - not he Ebm7 in the second part of the song (which I usually get to from Fm7).

As for the second part of the question - That would be my belief - if the melody has a dorian sound, then improvising using an aeolian sound would to me give a different vibe than would improvising using a dorian sound as well. To me it would sound out of place.

Also, if I'm comping as I have described above, I might have to start thinking again if I'm hearing you start your improv playing an aeolian or phrygian thing over top. I'm not saying it would be wrong, but I would be surprised.

**smp** · 08-14-2012, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by ColinO

I'm talking about the Em7 that I at least normally play just before the Dm7 when comping - not he Ebm7 in the second part of the song (which I usually get to from Fm7).

As for the second part of the question - That would be my belief - if the melody has a dorian sound, then improvising using an aeolian sound would to me give a different vibe than would improvising using a dorian sound as well. To me it would sound out of place.

Also, if I'm comping as I have described above, I might have to start thinking again if I'm hearing you start your improv playing an aeolian or phrygian thing over top. I'm not saying it would be wrong, but I would be surprised.

OK, but in order to play the Em7 you have already determined it's dorian so you can treat it diatonically when comping but how would it be analysed by someone like me or the OP who's just trying to determine if I should use the Dorian, Phrygian etc? Is it because of the melody?

**ColinO** · 08-14-2012, 07:30 AM

Yes.

And you should listen to a bunch of recordings of that song being played.

If all you had was a chart that said "Dm7" and no idea of the melody and had never heard the song played, or anything else to put the chord in context, then the Dm7 would not be assumed to be dorian - you could play anything over it that you wanted to. That's why I said I didn't like his premise - I don't think anyone just assumes that a m7 chord is dorian - that determination requires context.

**docbop** · 08-14-2012, 10:01 AM

It's always about hearing and using the notes. So what makes give Dorian its sound, the major 6 so make a practice tape, play using the major 6th on the minor chord and hear the sound. Do the same with Aeolian and play the minor 6th get the sounds in your ear. Use Dorian in context of a progression. Sing Dorian mode while playing a mi7 and feel that major 6th. Learn some lines of Jazz greats that use Dorian, analyze the line how are they using Dorian where are they putting the major 6th.

The big part of learning to play Jazz is training your ear for new sounds.

**Sailor** · 08-14-2012, 11:54 AM

Tx guys...all good responses. I think dorian comes up more because II V I is so prevalent....almost all Aebersold stuff is Dorian mixo etc...

sailor

**Sailor** · 08-14-2012, 11:58 AM

....also,

, any good ideas on how to comp on long modal tunes like So What?? Just play different inversions of Dm7, different grips??

Tx, Sailor

**randalljazz** · 08-14-2012, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Sailor

....also,

, any good ideas on how to comp on long modal tunes like So What?? Just play different inversions of Dm7, different grips??

Tx, Sailor

**smp** · 08-14-2012, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by ColinO

Yes.

And you should listen to a bunch of recordings of that song being played.

If all you had was a chart that said "Dm7" and no idea of the melody and had never heard the song played, or anything else to put the chord in context, then the Dm7 would not be assumed to be dorian - you could play anything over it that you wanted to. That's why I said I didn't like his premise - I don't think anyone just assumes that a m7 chord is dorian - that determination requires context.

Thanks ColinO

**smp** · 08-14-2012, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by docbop

It's always about hearing and using the notes. So what makes give Dorian its sound, the major 6 so make a practice tape, play using the major 6th on the minor chord and hear the sound. Do the same with Aeolian and play the minor 6th get the sounds in your ear. Use Dorian in context of a progression. Sing Dorian mode while playing a mi7 and feel that major 6th. Learn some lines of Jazz greats that use Dorian, analyze the line how are they using Dorian where are they putting the major 6th.

The big part of learning to play Jazz is training your ear for new sounds.

Good advice docbop, thanks.

**RyanM** · 08-14-2012, 05:48 PM

Dorian is prescribed because it has no 'avoid notes' and therefore easier when trying to teach 100 students at a jazz camp to learn to improvise in a week.

So What is a modal tune in Dorian... it's not so much Dmin to Ebmin, more like D dorian to Eb Dorian.

Dorian, Aeolian, Phrygian, Dorian b9, Dorian #4.... I say go ahead and practice all of them, sing them, learn their sounds so you'll know when you want to use them.

**JohnRoss** · 08-15-2012, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by Sailor

But in a modal tune like So What why is the assumption Dorian and not Aeolian....couldn't it be VI instead of II??

And why isn't Aeolian played over m7 when it is totally diatonic to parent scale??

These are the dire consequences of the generalized misuse of the word "mode": you are mixing things up terribly. One thing is the lazy way people talk about using modes/scales over particular chords like II or VI or #III, and another is proper modal. Assuming that this tune (we are talking about the Miles Davis So What, aren't we?) is really modal, then that is its scale, end of story. That is to say, the parent scale is not C major or anything else diatonic, but D Dorian. And if it is D Dorian, then Dm7 is chord I, not VI or II or anything else.

The thing is that, when people like Reg talk about using Aeolian over VI or whatever, they're talking about shortcuts, not tonal centres, just what you can play. It's a quick way for you to put your hands on the right note collection (that's the expression they use, I believe) on the neck. They are not so much modes as scales.

Identifying a real mode has two stages: first, find the tonal centre, and second what other notes are available.

**smp** · 08-15-2012, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by JohnRoss

That is to say, the parent scale is not C major or anything else diatonic, but D Dorian. And if it is D Dorian, then Dm7 is chord I, not VI or II or anything else.

Identifying a real mode has two stages: first, find the tonal centre, and second what other notes are available.

Mmmm, just when I thought I was getting a handle on this

I've got a lot of studying to do!

**JohnRoss** · 08-15-2012, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by smp

Mmmm, just when I thought I was getting a handle on this

Sorry, didn't mean to confuse. Perhaps it was the Roman numerals that made you think of a diatonic scale. Anyway, if your scale is D dorian, you scale degrees are 1-D, 2-E, etc. so you would have to count the chords built on your scale degrees like this:
1(I) - Dm(7)
2(II) - Em(7)
3(III) - F(maj7)
4(IV) - G(7)
5(V) - Am(7)
6(VI) - Bm(7)b5
7(VII) - C(maj7)

I'm deliberately not using upper and lower case Roman numerals there, because chord relationships are quite different to those in a diatonic scale.

I don't think that's difficult - ask away if it still isn't clear.

**smp** · 08-15-2012, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by JohnRoss

Sorry, didn't mean to confuse. Perhaps it was the Roman numerals that made you think of a diatonic scale. Anyway, if your scale is D dorian, you scale degrees are 1-D, 2-E, etc. so you would have to count the chords built on your scale degrees like this:
1(I) - Dm(7)
2(II) - Em(7)
3(III) - F(maj7)
4(IV) - G(7)
5(V) - Am(7)
6(VI) - Bm(7)b5
7(VII) - C(maj7)

I'm deliberately not using upper and lower case Roman numerals there, because chord relationships are quite different to those in a diatonic scale.

I don't think that's difficult - ask away if it still isn't clear.

Thanks for the explanation John. You're right, it's not so difficult now that I've seen it written out like that. Just a small shift in my thinking.

Much appreciated.

**Sailor** · 08-15-2012, 09:49 PM

What about Summertime...Dm7 - Em7b5 - A7b9. Would you consider the first chord (tonal center) Dm its own key? II of C major (Dorian), vi of F major (Aeolian)...(I know its not that

)...but you can certainly play dorian over the Dm.

Sailor

**RyanM** · 08-15-2012, 11:33 PM

First chord of Summertime can't be anything but a tonic minor.
Any of the minor scales "work" over a i minor.

**JohnRoss** · 08-16-2012, 09:03 AM

This is getting more confused instead of less.

Originally Posted by Sailor

Summertime...Would you consider the first chord (tonal center) Dm its own key?

A chord isn't a key, Sailor. In this case, the chord and the key have the same name, but they're different things.

is the II of C major (Dorian), vi of F major (Aeolian)...(I know its not that

)...but you can certainly play dorian over the Dm.

Perhaps you can, that doesn't make it Dorian (much less anything major). Summertime is a minor pentatonic tune, if it's in D, then that will be D minor (pentatonic). Saying other things will work doesn't make it that - if D minor (pentatonic works), so does F major (pentatonic), it's the same note collection, but there's no way it's in F, or anything Dorian or Aeolian.