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Sorry I'm new, please move this to the correct thread or I can remake it elsewhere if this isn't the right place for my question.
Here's some vid of me playing guitar:
When other people play jazz it sounds like this. This is how I want to sound: (at 2 mins 33 sec)
I'm nowhere near that and I don't get what the difference is. Is it because this guy has an archtop? heavier strings? pick vs. my playing fingerstyle? I'm playing neck pickup with the volume on about 7, the tone at about half, into a Princeton Reverb with treble 7, bass 3 and about 1.5 reverb. I should be able to get this sound. It's driving me nuts that no combination of settings makes me sound like the above. I just sound like a clinical, clean and boring electric guitar. I sound like a preset on a software plugin. I think it must be how I'm playing, not what I'm playing through (gear etc). Or... What?
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06-05-2024 11:53 PM
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Welcome to the forum.
No, that's definitely not only due to your technique. I can think of 3 problems. It sounds like there could be some tone suck going on in your signal chain, you've dialed your sound too bright, and you could benefit from a better pickup.
I can tell you like some bright detail in the sound from your desired tone, but you have to have some bass in there too and not have the treble taking over.
Is that a decent pickup in there? I can't tell what it is. I always like to have an aftermarket pickup in my guitars because then I'm positive I know what I'm getting and they aren't that expensive.
Might want to do without the pedal board. All you need is a little reverb from the amp to get that jazz tone. Sounds like something is sucking tone..
Your touch doesn't emphasize the fundamental of the note as much as it could. It kind of touches the strings when you need to dig in a bit and focus on emphasizing the fundamental. So you could work on that but it's not only that.
Lastly, this doesn't change your tone in the room, but you can adjust the placement of the mic to make it warmer by moving it towards the edge of the speaker rather than the middle which is the brightest, and more sterile apparently, check the article.
Quick Guide: 3 axis to be aware of regarding Microphone Placement on an Guitar Amp | The Gear Page
Nice, controlled playing tho.Last edited by Bobby Timmons; 06-06-2024 at 03:17 AM.
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You sound like a really good player, you have a lot of stuff already worked out. I can see why you're frustrated, as you've put in the work but it's not sounding like you want it to. Here's my 2 cents-
You should try flatwound strings. Heavy, somewhere in the 12-14 range. I can't see what strings you're using but sounds like round wound to me, and that's why it's too bright and chimey. Looks like that's some kind of an Ibanez hollow body? I would think that can get you pretty close, no need to spring for an archtop at this point. Depending how deep you want to get into jazz and how specific you're getting about your sound you could go for an archtop in the future.
Next suggestion, your arrangements are super literal interpretations of these tunes with exact bass lines, exact chords and everything. That's how a classical player would approach it. I find that they really swinging jazz guitarists leave a few things out. They don't play every bass note or every exact chord. They will prioritize swing feel above having these very complete voicings you have. You don't have much in terms of altered tones either. One guy to listen to would be Jim Hall. He's often leaving out the basic stuff and adding in some hipper stuff.
Another note, the new players these days all seem to want to play solo jazz. It wouldn't kill you to approach this as an instrument that is played in a group. People might hate me saying this, but solo jazz guitar is kinda square. It swings way better with a double bass player at minimum. Drums and bass is even better. Try playing along with the double bass players on YouTube. Then start leaving out some bass notes on what you're playing. This idea that you will play bass, melody, and chords, and have good timing and swing feel is not realistic for most players. Only a few virtuosos can do that. Even the great ones don't play in time, they have to slow down to grab a chord here and there and lots of it is free time. Ted Greene can play in time. Chances are you're not gonna be Ted Greene. Keep in mind the history of jazz guitar, it started as part of the rhythm section chunking quarter notes. The hard bop guys we all love all had done time in big bands playing that quarter note style and developing that swing feel. In the 50s and 60s, guitar became more featured but it still was usually a quartet at least. All the great Wes and Grant Green records have drums, bass, and piano. In the 70s fusion was very popular, it was loud and still had that swinging rhythm. Then the solo guys came along and that's sort of when jazz guitar lost popularity because it became too abstract. It became musicians music.
Ok but I'm getting off topic here.... last suggestion is to play with drum genius. This will replicate playing with a real drummer so you start to get swing feel. All the beginners lack swing feel these days, they all want to be Julian Lage and play a solo guitar classical/abstract geek-fest then post it on youtube. Swing feel is not a goal or a concern. I can tell you a jazz guitar player is worthless without swing feel.
The last clip you posted with the guy running through chords, he had some cool chords but also a nice touch. Even the randomness he was playing had vibe. Kinda effortless the way he was playing. It takes years to get there. But you can tell he has played in groups and is not a completely isolated bedroom player that attempts to play virtuoso solo guitar from day 1. To me this is like the rock beginners who are learning Tim Henson solos on day 1 but they can't play a Green Day song yet. After 1000 hours of practice you're left with a half done crappy solo but also you don't know enough to jam in someone's garage.
I think a more reasonable path is to learn some heads, melody only. Then learn to comp those tunes, learn to improv over those chords, develop swing feel, maybe transcribe some of the legendary horn solos and guitar solos. Then, if you're really in love with solo jazz guitar you can work your way up to that.
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In simple terms, your playing doesn't swing, it's like you're playing classical music, a Bach chorale or something. Your technique is adequate, your tone is too bright and chimey, as Bobby said, I'm sure you can adjust it. So I would say rhythm is the main thing you need to work on.
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Or this. But it's quite difficult for players of your age and skill to change styles. If they even really want to, that is. Sorry!
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Sometimes have a play with your gain stages across the signal chain (including your playing). It might be that you may need to change some stuff there but with a lot of things you should be able to get close with a 2 pickup guitar and using the tone / volume on your guitar.
This video is a great way of explaining some of the variable to consider and how tone works on the guitar. Really eye opening
http://www.youtube.com/live/_IYIYU0QO2E
Yes some of it will be the guitar, strings, etc. Start with the cheaper aspects when it comes to experimenting with sound (picks, strings, technique) and then move on to things like pickups and new guitars. You can do a lot on the sound with they way you mic the amp, the recording, etc.Last edited by lorez; 06-06-2024 at 06:12 AM.
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Tone wise, 7 on treble on a Princeton is BRIGHT.
Try both pots barely cracked open. That's "flat" on a Princeton.
Heavier strings would help.
Did you do these arrangements yourself? They're nice, but as others have mentioned, they sound like how a classical player or a "fingerstyle" (god I hate that term) steel string player would approach them. Nothing wrong with that, but they don't have any sense of swing.
Part of the problem is on Round Midnight, you're playing in E minor...which gives you those nice open strings...but open strings are hard to control...for jazz playing in a solo style, having those strings ringing out can be a liability, unless you're Bill Frisell or something.
If the goal is to play solo arrangements just keep at it. You can definitely already play pretty well in your style, so there's no reason you can't learn something new. You've got a lot of good advice here already.
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I have to get this off my chest but, for jazz, I prefer solid state. I have a Twin and a Musicman 65 rp 112 and persevered with them but always go back to my SSs.
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I agree with a couple of posters above- you have the notes, but not the feel. It doesn't swing.
I remember we had a thread here semi-recently, about IF "swing" could be notated or taught...
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Since you said 'it does not sound jazzy'... .
I think 'jazzy sound' aesthetics (not in terms of sonority but overall sound)... it is about to make kind of 'wrong' things sound 'right' and 'kitchy' seem 'tasteful'.
I think also the big impact of all this is overall feeling of multiple options given... that when it is played you feel like it could have been played also in another way, that it is momentary choice, or even accidental... but all on high level.
This feeling usually comes from kind of 'unpolishedness' that is based on those wrong and kitchy things: not quite clean intonation, rude or too straightforward effects, kind of 'mistakes' or 'weak solutions (that creates a feel of spontaneousness because a failure is a part of it) etc.
But also all still all must seem risky but controlled and quite subtle.
Tricky)))
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Please try it again...
Guitar tones full up, volume down a little from full up
Only an instrument chord between the guitar and amp
Princeton set with both tone controls at full minimum (1 and 1), just a slight trace of reverb
As others have noted, you're playing in a classical/folk style without swing; but let's get the tone right for jazz first. The Fender tone circuit is electronically at flat response when bass and treble controls are all the way down to their minimum settings. Then turn guitar tone controls full up and turn the guitar volume down starting from full up to find where it removes the attack brightness. Then set the mike about two feet from the amp, off the center axis, don't use any processing in making the recording; no compression or anything else. Let's hear what your guitar really sounds like.
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I'm going to disagree with those here saying that the tone is paramount over the feel. There are alot of jazz tone out there... not everyone has to sound like Wes Montgomery. Jazz tone can be on the bright side, just ask Jim Campilongo or Eldon Shamblin.
The tone will be EASIER to "fix" than the feel, but you should use whatever guitar tone you like. The tone is not what makes it "jazz."
Brian Setzer plays "jazz" (if Caravan qualifies, which IT DOES), on the bridge pickup and middle position of a Gretsch into a slightly distorted amp!
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Actually there are a good many jazz players who have a tone something like yours. Lenny Breau comes to mind, a very harp-like sound that lots of jazz guitar fans love. I have a Princeton Reverb as well and will see if I can dial something in that you might like.
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Thank you all so much for these thoughtful responses. What a great welcome. It's true I'm an acoustic/fingerstyle guy at heart, I'm not - and definitely don't pretend to be - a jazz musician. But I can at least try to get that sweet jazz tone, if it's even possible when playing with fingernails. I'm gonna try some of the suggestions in this thread and see how it works out.
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I actually like your tone - I think it's very articulate, but agreed it's not a traditional jazz tone. I use a bright guitar through a Fender Princeton AxeFX emulation, and for me I found setting the treble control on the amp to 2 gave me some of that nice top end but also a good deal of 'warmth'. Another easy thing to try is to moving your right hand and the place where you pick the strings closer to the neck - this will provide more emphasis of the note fundamentals.
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Joe Pass did pretty good with his fingernails.
Originally Posted by sosa
I really liked your All Blues. Like Jimmy Page playing all blues. Check out the Kenny Burrell one someone posted. Kenny Burrell is my go to now when I’m learning tunes.
All Blues can be a tricky one to nail. It needs a lot of space and restraint. Less is definitely more with that tune.
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Interestingly enough I listened again through better speakers and I thought the tone was actually quite good.
Through my phone it was painfully bright. So some of the comments you might be getting are based on HOW someone listened to it.
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Yeah, I think they’re both very nice arrangements.
OP can find success gigging like this. Just get 23 more worked out.
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Yes, I didn't mean to accentuate the negative in my critique, he plays well. We all have our weaknesses, and developing jazzy, stylish phrasing is a great challenge. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Playing with nails isn't your best bet for a warm tone like your example unless you switch to heavy flats. I'd pluck the strings with the flesh of your fingertips but still allow your nails to contact the string. You have to finesse the guitar in a way which will accentuate the fundamental of the notes, not flick the strings lightly with your nails and then expect to get a warm tone. Same principle as how a light pick makes lead playing sound very thin, while a heavy pick makes it sound much fatter.
Last edited by Bobby Timmons; 06-06-2024 at 05:51 PM.
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Nothing wrong to my ears, but not Trad Jazz and a lot of open strings, sounds good and it's definitely your own voice.
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So the fat of the fingertip will get you muddy and no definition. The exact spot where the nail meets the fingertip is the money spot, with the string then traveling down the nail. Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
Generally the mistakes people make with fingerstyle tone are not picking with the nails, having nails that are too long, or having nails that aren’t smoothly shaped. The former loses the definition that makes for strong time and punchy tone, and the latter two make it sound bright and brittle.
Google a picture of classical guitar nails to see what the move is.
Oh, and invest in some 2000 grit sandpaper.
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I prefer the mud. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
So, fingerstyle with flesh only for myself.
But, each to their own.
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I have no real opinion on nails or no nails as working in gastronomy forces me keeping my nails short anyway but through the website of our Rob MacKillop I learned that is also a picking technique not using the nails for classical guitar. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Technique | rmclassicalguitar
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