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Asking if anyone knows about Benedetto's made between 1999 and 2006 by Fender.Were they made by Fender Custom Shop luthiers or were they Benedetto's own guys he brought to Fender? I just played a Bucky Pizzarelli Bravo from that period and it sounds and feels just as good as the Savannah made ones that are made today.
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06-29-2024 08:53 PM
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I wasn't aware that Benedetto was made by Fender. I do know that in 2001 Fender bought Guild and moved everything out of Westerly to California. At that time, they had Bob Benedetto train builders while he supervised the Guild construction. These guitars bore the name of Benedetto Guilds and the already prestigious reputation of Westerly Guild gained the caché of the Benedetto name, especially on the high end archtops.
Personally, I tried a number of these Benedetto/Guilds including their Artist Award and found them to be quite different from their Westerly predecessors. My personal preference has always been for the Westerly craftsmen, ostensibly lighter built and more resonant to my ear and hands, but to be fair, Benedettos do open up through use and break-in so that is a very unfair judgement.
Thanks for that news information on Benedetto contracting Fender. I had no idea. Where did you hear this from? And did they only have this arrangement between 1999 and 2006? Any more details on this history?
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Search Benedetto guitars history, for example. California-made Bravos have a metal tailpiece instead of the current ebony version.
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This from Wikipedia,"From 1999 to 2006, Benedetto had a licensing agreement with Fender Musical Instruments to produce his models in their Custom Shop. He also redesigned the Guild Artist Award (later the Johnny Smith Award) and the Guild Stuart X-700".Talking to someone i know who was in music sales for years,he said the Pizzarelli model sold for about 8K.Looks like they haven't lost their value because there are two on Reverb right now for more than that,
Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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When Bob Benedetto made his deal with Guild, Guild had their Westerly Factory and also had a custom shop in Nashville. And Guild was owned by Fender at that time (Guild has long since been sold to Cordoba guitars). Two Guild Models (Artist Award and Stewart) were made in Westerly with new Bob Benedetto specs. The rest of the Benedetto line were made in the Nashville Custom shop.
When Fender closed the Westerly plant, all Guild and Benedetto production moved to Corona California (the factory where American Strats and Teles are made). When Benedetto's deal with Fender/Guild expired, the new Benedetto company was formed and production of Benedettos moved to Georgia where they remain today. The Benedetto designed Guilds were discontinued.
I have played Benedettos made by Bob, made in Georgia, made in Nashville, made in Corona, CA and I owned two of the Westerly made Benedetto Artist Awards. My opinion is that the guitars made by Bob are great (none better really), the ones made by others can be great, but are mostly "good". When Fender lost it's deal with Bob and Cindy Benedetto, they sold their remaining inventory at greatly reduced prices. A friend of mine picked up a Corona made "La Venezia" (The top Benedetto at the time) for $7K. It was a good guitar, but not worth the 7K to him or me. For that money at the time (almost 20 years ago), he and I were pretty underwhelmed and he sold the guitar soon after and bought a 1928 L-5 which smokes almost any archtop that I have ever played.
If I wanted a Benedetto, I would save my dollars and buy one made by Bob. The others would need to be priced fairly and have a return possibility as they are simply not always great. It is my understanding that all Fender/Guild Benedettos were made by select Guild craftsmen who had hands on training by Bob Benedetto.
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Fender bought Guild in 1995 and sold the Company to Cordoba in 2014. Guild Guitar Company - Wikipedia Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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I attended the NAMM show when the Fender/Benedetto deal was introduced. It was a big display upstairs, Bob and Cindy were both there. In a corner they had a bench set up and Steve Stern was carving a top plate. The floor had Bravos, the Bucky 7 string, Guild X-700 and AA's available for audition.
I played everything I could get my hands on and found them all to be great, fantastic guitars but somehow lacking in the soul of the instruments Bob built on his own. Which is why I own and gig with my 1990 Cremona-there is just something about (most) of the guitars built by Bob himself that has magic.
Later that evening, Jimmy Bruno performed solo at the Jazz Bakery in Culver City. He played a borrowed Guild X-700 from the show and sounded absolutely wonderful-but then again it was, well, Jimmy.
There are several threads on this forum about the Corona Guild/Benedetto instruments, and most I've read pretty much dismiss this period without actually having played one. Asking prices will always be lower than the Bob built guitars, that's a fact.
A fascinating story to be sure!
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Thanks for the info.If there's one thing i have learned over the years is that guitars are like people,each one is an individual.I have only played one Benedetto made by Bob and quite honestly it was good but not a great guitar especially for the price the seller was asking. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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In my opinion, the real gold nuggets from this period are the Benedetto's made in the Guild Nashville custom shop. They were produced by Mark Piper and Evan Ellis, whom the late Stan Jay ( Mandolin Brothers) quoted Bob as saying " these guys make the best Benedetto's". When Guild decided to move the custom shop operation to Corona, Bob asked Mark and Evan to move to Savanagh and start the Benedetto guitar company. Evan went, but Mark started Redentore Guitars, and now resides in Texas. Bob knew these guys were good.
I had a lengthy conversation with Mark Piper ( many years ago) about that period, and he said Bob had a frequent presence, and more " hands on / interactive" than Corona. They all worked together to produce many of the components. They didn't make many Benedettos in the Nashville location - it may have been around 50 if I recall - but someone can do a fact check. They were then instructed to make the components and ship them to Corona for final assembly / finishing until the Nashville location was closed.
I've owned 3 real Benedeto's ( from Stroudsburg ) and I've played several Corona builds, which I found uninspiring ( quiet acoustically with thick finish ). Years later I happen to acquire a Nashville built Benedetto and found it to be more reminiscent of the ones made by Bob in the Stroudsburg location, which I visited many times.
I believe that Bob's golden period is associated with the builds coming out of the Stroudsburg location. After that, his focus shifted to license agreements, and setting up a guitar building business.
I understand he's now doing some building from his home in FL, with finishing being done in Savanagh. Bob and Cindy are great people and they've contributed immense knowledge to many other luthiers on how to build an Archtop guitar. I cant think of any other builder who has shared so much about the building process than Bob Benedetto.
BTW- I still own the Nashville built guitar, and will not be selling it anytime soon.
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Steve, you advised me on one of those Nashville Benedettos several years ago, but I was too slow to pull the trigger. It’s one of the few that got away for me.
I owned a Fender/Benedetto Bravo for awhile. It was a nice guitar - light and resonant with great playability - but it didn’t really inspire me. I think I sold it in order to get my ‘59 RI ES-175 VOS. I wish I still had that guitar.
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Guild are now owned by Yamaha as of 2023
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Mark, Originally Posted by Mark M.
Always great to hear from you. Guitar ownership is an ongoing journey. Some getaway, and others are great surprises. Grabbing that 59’ reissue ES-175 was a smart move. The Gibson custom shop reissues have been outstanding.
I have a recent 57’ and 59’ Les Paul custom shop reissue - and they are very close to many real ones that I’ve played. I think once these reissues go through several years of seasoning- they will be hard to distinguish (tonally) from the originals.
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GAKKI acquisition. That's about the most solid insurance when it comes to longevity. Yamaha makes everything from guns to motorcycles to some seriously nice production guitars and more. With Yamaha being hands on knowledgable about guitars, it's up to them to decide which traditions to perpetuate and which ones to change. Originally Posted by Archie
Hmmm, they could even decide to create high end niche Guilds on par with the best of Westerly if they decided they wanted to fulfill the tier Gibson no longer has an interest in.
Yamaha wouldn't even feel a blip in their bottom line. It'd be akin to Ford deciding they wanted to make a car in 3 years to outclass a Ferrari.
This feels like good news.
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Arguably, with the possible exception of Ken Parker in his Archtoppery series. But I digress. Originally Posted by QAman
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I hadn't realized that Yamaha had bought Cordoba and by extension, now owns Guild. Frankly, I think Fender made a serious misstep with the Guild brand by putting the Guild name on Asian made instruments. Of course Fender had done that to itself as a company, so it seemed natural to them I suppose. Guild was never able to beat Gibson at the archtop game (who could?) or beat Gibson and Martin at the flattop game (again, who could?), but they made (and continue to make) excellent acoustic and electric guitars.
Yamaha is a fine company and has been in the musical instrument business since 1887. I submit that the Guild brand is now in good hands, possible the best since Guild's founder, Alfred Dronge dies in a plane crash way back in the 70's.
Fender is chugging along just fine and the Benedetto brand has been in good hands under the leadership of Howard Paul.
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Not to spat, but the Cumpiano & Natelson flattop book was every bit as influential in the 80s and 90s as Benedetto's archtop book was in the 90s and 00s. Originally Posted by QAman
FWIW I built a flattop out of the Cumpiano book. It was tremendously empowering!
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Actually, Ford did that exact thing by building the Ford GT40. In the early 60’s Ford attempted to purchase Ferrari for $18M. Enzo Ferrari considered selling but at the last minute declined to sell. This began a war between the two companies. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
Ford spent some $100M to build a race car to run at Lemans. Ferrari had won this race for 6 straight years.
With Carroll Shelby’s assistance Ford succeeded, and for 4 straight years between 1966-1969 Ford bested Ferrari by becoming the first American car company to win a European race at Lemans.
In 1967 Lemans changed the rules by limiting engine size to 5.0 liters. This greatly benefited Ferrari, which ran much smaller engines.
Ford continued to win in 1968 and 1969, so Lemans permanently banned the Ford GT40 from racing Lemans.
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Did you notice the ones on reverb have been sitting for about a year? I dont think that supports the idea of their value, to many good choices at that price point. Lots of wishful thinking on reverb, I always look at what actually sold and for how much...the million dollar "tree" guitars are still listed, apparently the market isnt seeing the "value" Originally Posted by nyc chaz
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"Hmmm, they could even decide to create high end niche Guilds on par with the best of Westerly if they decided they wanted to fulfill the tier Gibson no longer has an interest in”. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
I hope they don’t because that’s exactly what i wanted to do. Why do you think I got these?
But that exact thought did cross my mind!
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Actually i did notice,one being sold by Chris Mirabella and the other by Rudy's.I would say both are pretty experienced in pricing guitars.Benedetto's made by Bob's personal hand sit for years too . Originally Posted by Rickco
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There are plenty of exceptions to this opinion. A few months back I posted a PSA regarding a 1990 Benedetto Cremona, same year as mine. It was brokered by Schoenberg Guitars in the Bay Area with a asking price of $22,000. It was on the market for a very short time before fellow forum member AKA obtained it. Originally Posted by nyc chaz
My BC was a word of mouth situation, it was never advertised. I bought it from from the family of the original owner after he passed about two months before the sale.
Reverb is not the be all end all of high end archtops.
And let's be fair here-there are plenty of L-5's and Super 400's that sit on Reverb for many months. Reading the forum, there are several guys that have high dollar instruments and play out with their Ibanez, Eastman, Asian guitars and leave the good stuff at home. I've just never been in that camp. If you are going to purchase a exceptional instrument, why not use it for doing what it was built for? Unless I'm gigging outside and the weather is way cold, too hot or raining, the Benedetto gets the call.
"Bring your best Guitar"-Billy Holiday
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I'm assuming you don't live in NYC.If you had to take a bus or subway to a gig i doubt you would want to take your Cremona.I know someone who had a beautiful 175 stolen from them as they put it down for a second to open a door to a cab.Even Joe Pass rarely took his D'aquisto out of the house. Originally Posted by SierraTango
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Well, one of his D’Aquisto’s. The other one went everywhere for about 5 years Originally Posted by nyc chaz
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I can certainly understand a Benedetto built by Bob going for $22k, Mirabella and Rudy can afford to sit on those Guilds, that doesnt make them worth or obviously valuable to the market and if sitting on a guitar for a year I wouldnt consider that its "holding its value" so to speak.
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Every individual luthier's career comes to an end - a brand with a deadline. Pioneers C.F. Martin and Orville Gibson succeeded in perpetuating their reputation by scaling up to an industrial level early enough. The history of D'Angelico after the great master is one of exploitation; that of D'Aquisto less of the same. In the next generation, Bob Benedetto stands out not only for the fine guitars he made, but for the professional way the brand reputation was managed. While collaboration with Fender was less than a success, the production of Benedettos under Howard Paul in Savannah since 2006 is a textbook example of succession respecting the provenance, values and quality of the originals. With a stated annual output of about 100 guitars from a personnel exceeding 10, there's no room for exploitation.These people must be doing their jobs with love and pride.
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