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Even though I've been messing with guitars for over 50 years now (professionally so for about 40) this type of instrument has never made much of an impression on me -
but now things have begun to change ! I've been searching for new songs and came across some clips by Joscho Stephan :
and the tones he coaxes out of his "Grande Bouche" by Jörg Volkert just hit me in my core. I need to know more about these guitars, have many questions and hope to find some answers here, where I know some real connaisseurs will generously share their knowledge and experience !
Why do the majority of these guitars have pretty much flat fingerboards, a zero-fret and an open headstock ? These details have no influence on the tone, correct ? My only explanation : I "assume"
that the builders cater to the image of those guitars that Django used in his day and these are the role models that most players want. Looks are so important ....
It also strikes me as odd NOW that so few of these guitars are heard OUTSIDE the Gypsy Jazz idiom, despite the fact that their sound would lend itself to pretty much all acoustic guitar work.
Joscho has this style down like only a few others and even though he does incorporate techniques and "icons" from other (more recent) styles he still uses mostly downstrokes, a wide vibrato and the typical long arpeggios that go back a good 90 years, it's really amazing !
I will go out looking at and sampling as many different "Django" guitars as I can but I'm also interested in YOUR take on these, what are your favorite models, makes, versions, players ?Last edited by gitman; 08-18-2024 at 12:16 PM.
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08-18-2024 10:56 AM
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Welcome to the fans of the Selmer-Maccaferri style guitar, you will find a lot of information at djangobooks.com, especially the forum on the site. Also take a look at Francois Charle's book, The Story of Selmer Maccaferri Guitars. Joscho Stephan is an amazing player, and Volkert is a fine builder (I think Uli Hoffmeier of Max Raabe and the Palest Orchester uses one). The best sounding guitar of this type to my ear that I have played was an early Selmer, 12 fret grande bouche model. My favorite builders in addition to the original Selmers include Joseph DiMauro (the elder) and some modern builders, Bob Holo, Craig Bumgarner, and Jean Barault, but there are excellent guitars out there both vintage and new. Some great players to check out if you haven't already include Romane, Bireli Lagrene, The Rosenberg Trio, Gonzalo Bergara, Reiner Voet and Pigalle 44, Les Doights de l'Homme, there are many more. Good luck on your search, playing as many as you can is invaluable.
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So the original design was to be a classical guitar...hence the flat fingerboard/ slotted headstock.
They didn't take off as that, but the rest is history...and with history comes tradition.
They're interesting instruments...fun to play...once you get to know them, you get why they don't just take over the flattop acoustic world...but there's stuff they do that really ONLY they do right. You'll be amazed at how strong and fat the treble strings sound.
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It may sound odd to some but it's not the STYLE of music that drew me in now - I've known about Django and his music for at least 50 years but that bug never bit me. What I find so intriguing now is the strong acoustic tone of the Maccaferri/Selmer types and after listening and watching many fine players in the Gypsy style I just KNOW that I could make this type of guitar work for me and my music- better so than an acoustic archtop, of which I've owned and played many over the past decades ...
Please keep your comments coming !
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Maccaferri was said to be a classical guitarist on a par with the young Segovia. Eventually, he had to stop playing and turned to inventing. This explains why he modelled his guitars on classical guitars, trying to improve on the design, particularly the volume. As far as I know, a lot of his earlier models actually had gut strings. The steel string model was the only one he got any recognition at the time and by Django at that. The rest is history.
He then went to America and invented the plastic clothes pin. I kid you not.
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08-18-2024, 01:01 PM #6Onesimus Guest
From djangobooks.com:
“In order to understand that big, authentic sound, it’s helpful to have a sense of the Gypsy-jazz guitar’s history and construction. The instrument was conceived in the early 1930s through a collaboration between the Italian musician and luthier Mario Maccaferri and the French instrument maker Selmer. Maccaferri later would pioneer the production of plastic archtops, saxophones and ukuleles.
The earliest Selmer-Maccaferri guitar was an oddball creature with its large D-shaped soundhole (grande bouche or large mouth); wide, floating bridge; fancy tailpiece; gently arched (not carved) French spruce soundboard; and ladder-braced top and back. The Selmer-Maccaferri was the first guitar with a cutaway and a steel-reinforced neck. Though the instrument is closely associated with guitar legend Django Reinhardt—and Gypsy jazz in general—it was originally intended for the classical guitarist and jazz musicians. The first examples were built with Maccaferri’s internal resonating chambers to be very present and loud guitars. One might draw a paralel to the tornavoz found on many iconic classical guitars built in the latter half of the 19th century.
As opposed to fine steel-string or classical guitars, with solid backs and sides, most of the Gypsy-jazz model Selmer-Maccaferris had laminated Indian rosewood backs and sides—for sonic reasons, and not cost-cutting measures. The use of laminate was designed to isolate the top. An arched/bent pliage top (much like Neapolitan mandolins) and laminated back and sides make the sound reflect outward as much as possible, so the attack of the guitar is quite immediate.
Maccaferri only worked with the company for 18 months. After he left, his original design saw various modifications, among them the introduction of a small oval and round sound hole (petite bouche or smallmouth/ bouche ronde) and a long scale length of 670mm (26.38 inches). Still, Maccaferri’s name is forever associated with the instrument whose defining sound is characteristic of Django Reinhardt.
One of the first things to consider when buying a Gypsy-jazz guitar is the type of music that you anticipate playing. If you’re looking to get into playing straight Gypsy jazz, whether as a hobbyist or a professional musician, it’s best to shop for a Selmer or Maccaferri copy. For an authentic sound, you’ll definitely want to look for some of the things that were found on the original guitars.
You should look for a solid, arched spruce top; laminated rosewood or birdseye maple back and sides; and a walnut neck. The most popular variation is the later Selmer style, with a 14th-fret neck-to-body junction and longer scale length. This type generally has the most cutting tone and serves well as an all-purpose instrument. On the other hand, the earlier Maccaferri style has a 12th-fret neck junction and a slightly sweeter and more overtone-rich sound, not to mention a shorter scale-length fretboard, 648mm (25.5 inches).
If your aim is to be a great soloist and sound like Django as heard on such early recordings as “My Sweet” or “Sweet Georgia Brown,” keep in mind a common misconception: Reinhardt didn’t start playing the 14-fret model seen in photos until the late 1930s. Django was actually using a 12-fret grande bouche guitar, proving that it’s not just a rhythm guitar.
Like any other style of guitar, the Gypsy-jazz guitar has seen a range of design variations over the decades. If stylistic rectitude is less of a concern for you, and you want the basic sonic footprint and feel of a Gypsy-jazz guitar, but with other timbral possibilities, don’t limit yourself to a Selmer- or Maccaferri-style guitar. Be open to features that aren’t necessarily historically correct. If you’re going to be performing other than straight Gypsy jazz—and you want a bit more mid- or high-presence, for example—you might try a guitar with solid back and sides or a cedar top.
It’s one thing to hear a Gypsy-jazz guitar on a recording, but many musicians, upon playing one for the first time, are surprised and even taken aback by how they sound. People describe it as nasal- or crunchy-sounding—or just weird. That’s exactly how a Gypsy-jazz guitar should sound. And it’s also why it’s best to first experience Gypsy-jazz guitars in person.
Another surprise comes in the form of playability: This type of instrument’s optimal setup differs from that of a regular steel string. “The action on a Gypsy-jazz guitar is generally three millimeters above the 12th fret on the low-E string and around 2.1m on the high-E. Noticeably higher than on a standard steel string. If you set the action too low without enough tension, as many novices do, the guitar will have no projection or power.
While you shouldn’t confuse high action with a poor setup, you should know that entry-level Gypsy-jazz guitars often take a bit of work out of the box to ensure the best playability and sound. So if you must order an instrument online, factor the cost of a good setup—generally as much as $200. Many of these import models require fret dressing, adjustment of the bridge feet to properly contact the top, notching the bridge to ensure proper string spacing, and making sure that the tailpiece insert is fitted to ensure that there is no rattle. All the guitars in our shop undergo an involved setup process before shipment.
Something else to consider when auditioning your first Gypsy-jazz guitar: You can’t just slap regular medium phosphor-bronze strings on the instrument. To get the proper sound and tension from a Gypsy-jazz guitar, the best choice is silver-plated copper on a steel core, like Savarez Argentine Gypsy-Jazz Acoustic Guitar Strings. The standard gauge for these is .010 on the high-E string. They’ve been used by every famous guitarist in the genre, including Django.
Then there’s that tiny, but all-important, accessory: the plectrum. Chances are the medium flat pick you use on your steel string won’t quite cut it in terms of tone and volume on a Gypsy-jazz guitar, which is best played with a specialized type of pick, up to 6 mm thick. You’ll really benefit from a Wegen or DjangoGuitars pick, the handmade picks that most Gypsy-jazz players use. The bottom line is that when buying your first Gypsy-jazz guitar, it’s best to manage your expectations as to how it will sound and feel. In many respects, it’s a different instrument than a steel-string flattop—one that will require new techniques and patience to master. You have to learn to play these guitars. It’s an acquired skill that comes with time and experience.
We have invested a considerable amount of time living and working with instruments and players in Europe to give you a truly authentic experience....the way it should be done. We look forward to assisting you on this journey. Please reach out to us for a discovery call.”
-Tommy Davy
Owner, DjangoGuitars USA
Strings:
Important Care Reminders:
-ALWAYS keep the guitar in the case when not in use! Invest in a strong protective case. Most guitars are damaged in accidents involving guitar stands!
-DO NOT allow the instrument to get hot, cold, damp, or dry as this type of guitar is built extremely thin in construction and is prone to suffer from this type of misuse. DjangoGuitars cannot guarantee the instrument if the owner does not care for their own instrument. As with all other makes of acoustic guitars; humidity is vital. We recommend using a humidifier such as an Oasis.
-There will be an initial "settling in" of the top that occurs over the first week or so with new guitars. During this time the action may shift to your environment. Keep a measurement tool handy and keep track of your action height in a logbook.
-Carry a soft microfiber or low-lint cloth to keep your instrument free of oils from your hands and sweat. Wipe your guitar down after you play. Your guitar will thank you.
A few notes on playing Gypsy/Selmer-style guitars:
“-We often provide instruments to musicians who have many years of experience playing other types of guitars but, are new to playing the Selmer style guitar. The setup of these guitars feels quite a bit different than your flat-top dreadnought or arch-top guitar. You need to invest the time to learn techniques to play these guitars properly rather than modify the guitar to suit your level of ability.
-Your guitar has been set with an action that is traditional on this style of guitar. Do not be tempted to overpick as this will kill the higher register. If you choose to raise the action a little more power and tone will be forthcoming but, it will of course make playing that bit harder. Light gauge strings are set with high tension to provide a clear and full sound.
-You should use a rigid pick at least 2mm in thickness.
-Picking should be done close to the bridge. Not above the bottom of the sound hole is also important to keep the right hand clear of the bridge as this allows the top to move freely and increases the power of the instrument. The guitar has a natural reverb that will be inhibited if pressure from the hand is placed on the bridge. Spend a bit of time learning to create quality to the tone you are producing.
-Try as many guitars as possible and learn what to look for in terms of quality of materials T and workmanship. Familiarize yourself with the instruments and the makers themselves. It is important to understand the way the vintage guitars sound and how that compares to modern instruments.”
This should help out. The original Selmer guitars that Django and early gj players used had laminated sides and back. Walnut necks were also standard. This makes for a very different sound than a steel string guitar with solid wood sides and back and traditional maple or mahogany neck.
A couple of vintage laminate examples:
A modern solid wood example by luthier Christelle Ciallot of and played by Boulou Ferre’(both Paris,France):
And Jimmy Rosenberg playing a more modern design Adam Berten guitar from Belgium:
As far as sounds, the gj guitar is typically loud but not like a dreadnaught. They have their own sound. Personally, I prefer my Mule steel tricone. Steel and spun aluminum are the best tone “woods” to my ears.
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Have you gone down the Stephane Wrembel rabbit hole yet?
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That actually sounds quite nice!
Originally Posted by Onesimus
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I have a lot of experience playing Gypsy jazz and owning Selmer-Maccaferri guitars (I have played concerts at many Django festivals over the years). Here are some conclusions that I have arrived at after over 20 years of experience:
1. There is no right or wrong way to do this style, but using the proper guitars and picking style will get you closer to the "classic" Django style sound than using other guitars or techniques.
2. There is a LOT of variation in the sound and feel of Selmacs. Some sound like cheap banjos, others sound great. Some are somewhat easy to play and others are almost impossible to play. My favorites are Duponts, Favinos and for a more modern sound and easier playability, guitars made by Shelley Park.
3. The best sounding strings are the silver plated strings as used by Django. And sadly, they wear out fast. Very fast.
4. Try as you might, you will never sound like Django, Bireli or Stochelo. The best you can hope for is being the best you.
Good luck!
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That's ... interesting. I'm far from an expert on this but to the best of my knowledge the original Maccaferri design (for gut+silk or nylon) had a flat top (and a rather standard glued classical bridge). I wouldn't dare to say if they have a domed top or a purely flat one (both exist among classical guitars). Modern-day D-hole nylon stringer are built that way in any case. Originally Posted by Onesimus
Are there really steel-string versions with an actually arched top beyond the pliage? That aspect *could* be carved of course, but the name literally means "folding", and from the looks of it its main function is to lower the rear rim in increase the string break angle after (south of) the saddle without having to raise the saddle.
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Funny this thread popped up as I'm camping out at one of our favorite spots, Lopez Lake. Of course I have my Dupont MC 30 14 with me to scare away the bears!
Like most of us interested in GJ, I was attracted to the music in the 70's, however pre internet info was scarce. I attempted to learn as much as possible on my trusty Guild flatop, but of course couldn't get the correct tone. It wasn't until the inexpensive Gitane line came out that something close was available. I traded the Guild off for a Gitane 250M. Then sold that off for a Latcho Drom Djangology grand bouche, which traded into my current Dupont.
I don't consider myself a ace gypsy jazz guy, I worked with a excellent violinist for several years doing a regular gig at a Basque social club.
I play the Dupont for ASB music alot of that crosses over to Gypsy jazz rep.
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I found this very informative site that also deals with the issue of "pliage" in great detail and it will surely help in de-mystifying this particular aspect (and others) in early Selmac guitars :
Maccaferri Guitar Project
This construction detail of bending the top (the term "barrel top" is sometimes used) and glueing it onto the sides under stress is not un-common in both classical and steelstring guitar construction. The bent top can withstand more downward pressure than a level top - the same physical principle was used centuries ago by the architects of domed ceilings, arches , bridges etc. , violin luthiers, by Orville Gibson (!) and employing it on a thin and flat/not carved guitar top makes total sense to me.
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Those are all examples where the supporting structure has a domed shaped of itself, without being forced into one. The domed top (or back) of a classical guitar is probably more comparable to plate suspension? Originally Posted by gitman
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Maybe I‘m wrong but when I see these shapes I think of the arches that can support an immense weight and downward pressure by distributing it to the outside, onto pillars - in this case the sides of the guitar. I‘m neither an architect nor do have I a degree in physics but I do remember this from a highschool class project on roman and gothic churches …. Long ago !!! Originally Posted by RJVB
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After re-reading all the posts in this thread, I'd like to add some comments:
1. While the Asian copies can be a great starting point, as you get deeper down the rabbit hole and play several guitars, you will long for a European made guitar, or something like a Shelly Park as esteemed member String Swinger mentions.
2. If you follow the GJG market, you will notice Duponts sell more quickly. This is because they are constantly good to excellent instruments in my experience. I kind of equate it to Gibson.
3. Best way to play a bunch of them is to attend a Django festival.
4. While I agree with all the advice about care and feeding of these instruments, get out and take it to campfire jams don't turn it into a case queen. My Dupont was previously owned by a celebrity GJ player, it's been all over the world, has some dings and checking. Just adds to the charm.
5. Tommy Davy is a super player and very knowledgeable guy.
6. I did get a chance to play a original Selmer...the tone was to die for, however it was not a easy guitar to play. I walked away thinking those guys in the original Hot Club must of had hands of steel to perform for hours with these things. Respect!
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Stefan Hahl makes fantastic manouche guitars:
Hahl Guitars - Selmer Maccaferri Style Guitars
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No, you're absolutely right. I just cannot help but feel there has to be an effect of whether or not the structure "wants to be" in an arched shape. Originally Posted by gitman
My luthier showed me some classical building techniques/principles a few weeks back, including by how the dome gets imposed by pressing down top and a *straight* bracing strut into a concave solera and glueing the latter onto the former. I still have a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that that construct keeps its shape without external pressure (from the concave side), even more so how this can be better at resisting string pressure which will come from the other side and thus give the material an extra push in the direction it wants to go.
He also makes a nylon-string archtop that looks and sounds to die for (wasn't someone on here supposed to get to try one??) Originally Posted by Hammertone
A little chauvinist plug for some beautiful manouche guitars
Find your special Gypsy Guitar
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Originally Posted by RJVB
No, you're absolutely right. I just cannot help but feel there has to be an effect of whether or not the structure "wants to be" in an arched shape.
My luthier showed me some classical building techniques/principles a few weeks back, including by how the dome gets imposed by pressing down top and a *straight* bracing strut into a concave solera and glueing the latter onto the former. I still have a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that that construct keeps its shape without external pressure (from the concave side), even more so how this can be better at resisting string pressure which will come from the other side and thus give the material an extra push in the direction it wants to go.
He also makes a nylon-string archtop that looks and sounds to die for (wasn't someone on here supposed to get to try one??)
A little chauvinist plug for some beautiful manouche guitars
Find your special Gypsy Guitar
I remember reading somewhere someone saying a good gypsy jazz guitar is built "just enough so that it doesn't explode."
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There are several reasons you don't really see Selmer style guitars taking over the acoustic guitar world.
- Oval hole models have a longer scale length of 26.38" and D hole models are slightly shorter at ~26". The geometry can be, initially, uncomfortable for some players.
- They can often sound kind of weird if you're just strumming cowboy chords, it's hard to describe and varies from guitar to guitar but if you've played many of them you know what I mean.
- The setup can be finicky and they really do need to be strung with the appropriate strings. Having the action around 3mm at the 12th fret is considered pretty average.
- They usually have a dot on the 10th fret instead of the 9th fret. It always surprises me how many people consider this to be a deal breaker lol. You can get them w/ 9th fret dots nowadays of course.
Someone above mentioned the 'banjo-like' tone and that's definitely something you'll come across. It varies from builder to builder and, IMO, most people building today mitigate it fairly well. The guitars are still very mid-forward and generally soft on the low end, very different as compared to a dreadnaught.
This guitar is a bit of an extreme example and not really indicative of what these guitars usually sound like but you can hear the banjo-ish tone here when he starts playing leads around 50 seconds:
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Great reading and lots of very useful info, thanks guys ! Slowly a clearer picture starts to form in my head and some things come into focus : since I surely will NOT dive into the STYLE of music for which these guitars are the weapon of choice since Django's days I'm certain that such an instrument will serve me very well in many playing situations when my Banjo won't fit sound-wise, my resonator is too "clang-y" and my other acoustic guitars are simply not loud enough. Even though I am deeply in love with "the archtop guitar" in general, I must confess that with the exception of a very few specimen I have not yet come across one that has won me over on it's acoustic merits alone. Remembered are a Zeidler,
a late model D'Aquisto (at Mandolin Bros, many moons ago) and a beautiful pre-war Epiphone Deluxe (it belonged to Marty Grosz ...) - unobtainable then and now.
As mentioned above, the tone Joscho gets sitting on a sofa and playing into an iPhone , THAT'S what got me going. Here he doesn't just shred through some changes on a miked-up guitar on stage but takes full advantage of the whole dynamic and tone-color spectrum that his guitar has to offer.
In mid September the great annual "Guitar Summit" will again take place across the street from my house and I already know that a few better known builders will also attend, Volkert and Dupont among some others.
Here is another stellar young player from Corsica and he plays this solo piece with his guitar tuned down a whole step - what's not to love ?!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=Y-Urd6eCXh4
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That's what's said about classical guitars but given what they evolved from it could well be true for manouche guitars too. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
A resonator can also have that (for good reason). Originally Posted by olejason
I've been intrigued by the Di Mauro style of GJ guitar, basically a SelMac with (gaudy) f-holes. JWC make a version they call the Catania Swing, including one for nylon strings. I haven't been able to put a finger on their sound signature yet: can you?
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For sure! Some people really gravitate towards that type of tone for GJ guitars and some people aren't a big fan of it. It should be noted the brash banjo-ishness does tend to disappear in the context of a mix which that video obviously doesn't show. Sorry I didn't mean to imply the tone is bad, just a more extreme example of the type of banjo-like tones you find in GJ guitars. Originally Posted by Onesimus
Not sure if anyone else mentioned it but the original Selmer-Macaferri guitars actually had a wooden resonator. There are some surviving examples and a few builders offer them but they're pretty uncommon nowadays. I've never played a guitar with one installed but have always wanted to try it. Originally Posted by RJVB
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I have a Michael Dunn Mystery Pacific (early 1980s) with the Macaferri-style wooden “resonator”. It doesn’t function like the aluminum pie plate resonators on National or Dobro style guitars. Rather it is an internal soundbox reflector that projects a strong and LOUD tone while at the same time preventing the player’s body from dampening the sound through contact with the back of the guitar. It produces more volume than any other acoustic guitar I have encountered, which can be a mixed blessing in a group setting. It has been known to drown out a drum kit. Originally Posted by olejason
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I'd love to hear that! There's a great player here in town with a Dunn and I always enjoy hearing him play it. Originally Posted by pcjazz
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I had the opportunity to play Cigano oval hole yesterday at Lightning Joe's in Arroyo Grande, CA.
Not bad at all for $400 bucks!
Great shop BTW.
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