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If you think 175s are expensive, start looking at Monteleones, Marchiones, Manzers, Scharpachs and original D'Angelicos and original D'Aquistos.
Then the 175 won't seem so expensive LOL
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09-10-2024 01:30 AM
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I believe I am. Today? No, but we all have to believe the future holds bright things…
Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
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I had to double check this because I could have swore I saw these available on Selmer’s own website a few years ago, but you are indeed correct! Goes to show how little I pay attention to hardware. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
I have a Selmer Reference 54 Alto and a Meyer G5 mouthpiece that I played for more than a decade in all kinds of styles, in orchestras, combos, rock bands, you name it. I never wanted for anything else.
Wind instruments, to a larger degree, are technique-dependent in terms of sound production. You have near-complete control over the sound and intonation, and good luck getting anything to come out at all with a bad embouchure!
Of course technique is extremely important on guitar in this aspect as others have pointed out. I do not mean to downplay the careful study and work required to achieve pleasing sounds on any instrument, really. But it does seem like, especially with electric guitars, we are at the mercy of the design, construction and electronics more so than a wind instrument in this regard (tone quality, perhaps intonation)
Which, if true, is unfortunate for me as worrying about that stuff is torture for me personally, hence this thread :0
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The sticking point for me isn’t so much the cost. I (eventually) would gladly plunk down whatever is needed on a great instrument. Originally Posted by Bluedawg
It’s two things in my mind.
1) Locally, the availability of full hollow body arch tops is extremely limited, which means my ability to test before buying is also very limited (always, always a bad thing)
2) The sheer amount of comparable options that exist for electric guitar. There’s at least four different manufacturers named in this thread each with their own variety of comparable offerings within that class of instrument
If it were one or the other life would be much easier.
edit: all to say those points above make it harder to plunk down that kind of cash with the same confidence as I would, say, a Selmer saxophone
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Best Joe Pass Tone: his custom Gibson ES-175 Originally Posted by Peter C
Whatever he’s got there. One commenter said it’s a Teeny Brute but I’ve been unable to locate one unfortunately.
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You put a 175 thru any polytone you got Joe Pass. One other thing no one mentioned, Gibson has arguably, one of the best resales along with the largest market share. It's money in the bank if you buy it reasonable. There are lots of great archtops, but for the sound you mentioned, all the compromises are just that. 175 has its own thing going. Hearing the sound you like best is very inspiring.
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I find it interesting that when Pat's old ES-175 was no longer suitable for touring with, he didn't just get another one. It's not like he couldn't afford it. Gibson would've probably given him one. Pat has stated in interviews that while "Secret Story" was recorded with both his Ibanez and his ES-175 on half of the songs each, no one has ever been able to accurately tell him which instrument was used for which song. And yet many people complain that he sounded "better" on the ES-175. Originally Posted by jads57
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I’ve owned two ES-175s over the years but ended up selling them off as I found archtops that played and fit me better personally. Did the new guitars sound just like the ES-175s? No, but then two ES-175s don’t necessarily sound alike either depending on the decade built, etc.
When Joe Pass played an ES-175 it was the”affordable” archtop, not the prized icon it is today. We don’t know what he would have played given today’s options.
I compare ES-175s to Harleys. Even though you can buy cruisers that are as good or better they don’t say “Harley” on them and that history and culture brings a premium. And just like some guys HAVE to have a Harley, some of us won’t be satisfied until we get an ES-175 - even if we sell it later, we just had to get it out of our system.
I include myself in that group.
So… if you’re buying an ES-175 for the sound I think it’s completely unnecessary given all the choices you can make in strings, picks, amps, EQs, and (most importantly) your own personal attack and articulation. But if you’re buying it to own part of the heritage then go for it. They’re way cool.
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I have a Peerless Gigmaster, very similar to the 175 except the body is a little more shallow and the top is thinner. I prefer it to every 175 i’ve ever played, and it cost me about $900
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Totally agree with you.If you can get one with the Gibson 57's from a few years ago,soundwise they are about the same as a Gibson 175.I actually play my Epiphone more than my Gibson because the skinny neck is helpful to my aging hands. Some Barrington and Samick Greg bennett archtops can get you close to that 175 sound for very little money. Originally Posted by John A.
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Most experts disagree with you. The same mythology applies to saxes and pretty much everything else. The party line on Mk 6s is that tenors made before 1970 sound “bigger” and “warmer” than the last decade of production, and that ‘54 was the “best” year. But altos with serial numbers in the 130k to 145k range are the most valuable. I have no idea why. I think the player is the major determinant of tone quality and character of most high end instruments. Originally Posted by stolnd
The biggest impact on sound quality and value is the lacquer. I have many friends with early Mk 6s that look really ratty because the lacquer is more than half gone and what remains is cloudy. But they won’t have them refinished because of the widespread belief that new lacquer will degrade the sound quality. A few have had the ratty old lacquer removed because the horn looks better bare. But they’ll never have it refinished.
There were at least as many changes in 175s (and most other Gibsons) as there were on Mk 6s over the years - necks (1 piece, 3 piece, mahogany, maple, width, contour etc), body wood, top thickness, pickups, tailpieces, fingerboards, etc. They’re not all the same, although the amplified tone was similar in character throughout production.
We each know what we value in sound quality, but we don’t all hear the same things the same way.
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Listen to the same player on different guitars. Way more similarity than difference.
Blues In Maude's Flat (Grant Green) - Solo Jazz Guitar #shorts - YouTube
"I have to have [Guitar X] in order to sound like [Player Y and/or Recording z]" is just not the case. People sound like themselves, with rigs (at least if we're talking about clean neck pickup tones) making for subtle differences with large areas of overlap. IMO, the best approach is to keep an open mind and try as many guitars as you can to get a sense of what gets you where you want to go (in terms of sound, feel, appearance, etc.). Granted, that can be a challenge with archtops. So you just have to reconcile yourself to the process taking a while. Be patient, and buy from sellers who allow returns. Or just say "screw it", go for a 175, and either love it or learn to. Assuming you're spending an amount that isn't talking food out of your family's mouths, it'll have reasonable resale valye and be a good a guitar (if not "the one"), so a fairly low-risk proposition.Last edited by John A.; 09-10-2024 at 11:33 PM.
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Go for it. I could of written the Ops post it sounds so familiar. Cost me some money, stress, and time not going with my first instinct/hearts desire. Eventually I bit the bullet. My wife is away for work and my 175 is laying next to me on the bed instead. No joke. I suppose if I had decades of hands on with these guitars I'd have a more discerned opinion, but the 175 vibe is everything I imagined it would be, and that's a rare thing.
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It’s not so rare. I’ve seen more love affairs with 175s than any other guitar. Originally Posted by StoneWaller
I fell in love with it the first time I saw it in the 1959 Gibson catalog. It was also used by a lot of the players pictured there. Seeing one in Wes’ arms on the cover of The Incredible Jazz Guitar album fanned the flames to a blaze. I finally got a used one in the spring of 1961 and put in 10 years of learning, practicing, and loving jazz on it. Since it was my only guitar and I had it through high school, college, and into graduate school, I also played everything from rock to folk to country on it. Together, we survived about a thousand weddings and bar mitzvahs, hundreds of club dates, and countless local dances and parties.
I got stupid in ‘71 and sold it to a friend when I got a new L-5CN with D’A. It took me less than a week to realize I’d made a mistake - but my friend refused to sell it back repeatedly over many years. He never even learned to play! I stopped trying to get it back when I got a 165 and then a Guild X500. And soon after that I became interested in 7 strings, to which I converted exclusively in the mid ‘90s. By the end of the ‘90s, all my 6s were gone except for my Tricone and my Kubicki Express (both of which I still have).
Truth be told, I’d buy my 175 back today even if I never played it except for fun. 175s just inspire that kind of love and loyalty. If you feel it, don’t deny it and don’t be ashamed. It’s righteous, baby!
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A heartwarming ES-175 story, for those who have not seen it (and for those of us who already have):
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So we’re just about split down the middle.
Bottom line seems to be try a bunch out. There may be a road trip in my future. But Knowing how lazy I am I might just do it up and snag a 175.
I’ll update you all when the deed has been done. Probably will be at least several months out.
Lots of great info in this thread. Really appreciate you all taking the time to indulge me.
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I'll add that I picked up my 175 new around Christmas 1985. It has the mahogany back and sides.
Since then, I have added several other Gibson archtops.
In hindsight, I sometimes think I should have just stuck with the 175 and not spent the money on L5s and such.
But my other Gibson archtops are a lot of fun.
Are you in North America or Europe or somewhere else?
Good Luck on your road trip.
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I don’t know if that’s necessarily the case. A 175 in 1963 cost $275 (according to the Gibson catalog). That would be $2829 in today’s dollars. Originally Posted by Freddy23
I’ve owned two ES-175s over the years but ended up selling them off as I found archtops that played and fit me better personally. Did the new guitars sound just like the ES-175s? No, but then two ES-175s don’t necessarily sound alike either depending on the decade built, etc.
When Joe Pass played an ES-175 it was the”affordable” archtop, not the prized icon it is today. We don’t know what he would have played given today’s options.
I compare ES-175s to Harleys. Even though you can buy cruisers that are as good or better they don’t say “Harley” on them and that history and culture brings a premium. And just like some guys HAVE to have a Harley, some of us won’t be satisfied until we get an ES-175 - even if we sell it later, we just had to get it out of our system. I include myself in that group.
So… if you’re buying an ES-175 for the sound I think it’s completely unnecessary given all the choices you can make in strings, picks, amps, EQs, and (most importantly) your own personal attack and articulation. But if you’re buying it to own part of the heritage then go for it. They’re way cool.
In 1963 Pass was DownBeat’s new star of the year and was playing a lot, mainly with his Fender solid-bodies. As I understand an admirer gave him a 175. I doubt Pass was making enough money to afford one himself.
The ES-125 was about $100 cheaper btw—Gibson’s cheapest archtop, unless I’m mistaken.
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Mike Peak, according to interviews with Joe, who was still at Synanon at the time. He did not have a guitar of his own, it belonged to Synanon. Peak had a construction business, saw Joe playing a "rock and roll" guitar and thought he "should have the proper sort of guitar." Joe came home to Synanon on his birthday to a new ES-175, which was his main (maybe only?) guitar until he got the D'Aquisto. We all owe Mike Peak some gratitude. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
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Congrats! Sounds like You have made the decision!
I always thought that I don’t want an ES-175 because it is ”everywhere”. So after two decades and about half dozen different lower budget beauties I now own two ES-175s. And love them.
The difference between buying a guitar and a saxophone in the way You described is not very big. The difference is that there is not many shops where You could test many ES-175s and take the best. So we have to buy every single guitar we want to test, and if we’re not satisfied, we have sell it and buy a new. Same process but not simultaneously but in a row.
But as said, if You buy good guitars You will always get the same price back if You sell it.
Good luck! When You have found Yours, remember to share the pics and experience with us!
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A few additional facts may help understand a bit more about the period you’re discussing. First, that’s the price of a single pickup 175. The D (by far the most popular version both then and now) was $340. That’s $3495 in today’s dollars. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
The Fender JP played before he was given his 175 belonged to Synanon House, where he was a resident. He wasn’t making any money when the Sounds of Synanon album was released - it was a benefit album for Synanon, which at the time was the first residential drug treatment center in the US. Synanon was actually a very controversial organization that apparently started as a new religion and evolved into some combination of a cult and a criminal enterprise before disbanding in about 1990 in a cloud of legal problems. I gather (but don’t know for sure) that JP was there only for drug rehab and had nothing to do with the craziness. The players on that album were all Synanon residents AFAIK.
That album brought him the exposure that put him on track to achieve his potential. And the 175 came along for the ride. But he sounded like Joe Pass on any and every instrument he ever played. I bought the Synanon album when it came out, and his playing on it still astonishes me every time I listen to it.
Despite how much I loved his playing and wanted to learn how to do what he did, I didn’t fall in love with a Fender. I was already under the magic spell of the 175. It was and still is powerful!!
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I’m really glad I posted this question here. Would’ve never guessed this is how guitarists shop for instruments. Makes me feel a whole lot better about the situation. Originally Posted by Herbie
And this comment in particular edges me closer to a 175. The resale value is obviously very strong so it doesn’t seem like I’m exposed to too much risk if I decide it’s not what I want ultimately.
Thank you!
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Honestly you really do have to own them to know if it's you. I find that it takes quite a long time to get a guitar playing the way I want, work the bugs out, and learn it's nuances to make it sound it's best. Back in the day I had a music store local that you could play many of the same model and even then it was challenging due to the set ups, store noise, etc. You roll the dice buy right, and move it along if it doesn't work out. Originally Posted by stolnd
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I have a Selmer Mark VI. My dad bought it for me new in 1972. Great horn. Actually don't play it all that much. I use an Eastman instead because it's OK and if stolen or lost, it's easily replaced.
As for the Gibson ES175 and Joe Pass.. depends on which album/recording. Virtuoso (not sure how much is 175 vs D'Aquisto) is quite different. Then there is fingerstyle vs pick. If it's just 'overall' then yea.. a ES175 is pretty good.
Still, to me it's not a question of a specific player. Instead it's how far on the acoustic spectrum you want to go. An ES175 plugged in to a combo amp sounds like the electric guitar it's designed to be and it's hard to beat it for that. I play mine a lot and like it. However, if you want a more acoustic archtop sound, something carved from solid woods and made for an acoustic tone will work better assuming it's set up and amplified for it.Last edited by Spook410; 09-12-2024 at 03:36 PM.
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A sax player I know found a poor old woman whose husband, a pro sax player, just died. She was selling his Selmer mark VI, his Selmer Tenor, and and an expensive flute, and didn't know what they were worth and needed the money.The sax player said, "Look, I'll give ya 15k for all three instruments". Originally Posted by Spook410
The woman took the deal, and the sleazy sax player wound up with three instruments probably worth 30k for only 15k.
When friends of her late husband told her she'd been ripped off, she tried to take the guy who bought them to court, but the judge threw the case out.
Moral of the story; let your heirs know how much your instruments are worth before you croak.
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