Biting the bullet on an ES-175

[stolnd]

I hate thinking about equipment. I want a horn that gives me what I want and be done with it.

You guitarists man, I don’t know how the hell any of you sleep at night with all these options.

My bright idea was simple: Joe Pass is the main man, the recordings that inspired me to pick up a guitar were on a 175, therefore let’s get a 175 and be DONE with it.

Little did I know that my taste is the most expensive.

How do you guys even go about trying horns out? Virtually nobody sells arch tops around me, so even if I did take a shot online on a cheaper alternative, it’d still be just that, a shot in the dark. Might as well save up and bite the bullet on a 175.

Any tips about how to try out guitars? Am I stupid for spending so much on a 175?

[BBGuitar]

Look at the Eastman.

I have a 1968 ES-175D. and an Eastman AR610 and a AR605.

The Gibson sits in its case, great guitar but I prefer the Eastmans.

[Doug B]

ES 175s are FAR from the most expensive "jazz boxes"

[skiboyny]

I’d get a 175 if I were you. If the Joe Pass vibe is what your after it will do you proper. If you get something else you will always have that sound in the back of your mind. Joe played a early 60s model. I know many here might not agree with me but the 59vos model captures that Accoustic sound quite nicely.

[burchyk]

Sadly don't think it's that simple. ES-175 is not a universal "end game" when it comes to archtops. Took me a while to find the one I liked. They can be special guitars with their own quirks.

If I was just getting into hollow bodies these days, a used Eastman or Ibanez is what I'd be looking at.

[stolnd]

I agree with post #4. Ask yourself this question; will/can you be satisfied with a cheaper alternative/knockoff guitar, knowing that a 175 was the model that inspires you to play when hearing it? If the answer is yes, then by all means explore cheaper alternatives. If the answer is no, which with we guitar players, 99.9% of the time the answer is no, accept no substitute and get a 175.

It is not stupid to spend money on a nice, professional instrument that will last a lifetime. When buying, make sure the dealer has a return policy that allows you to play a guitar a couple of days and decide if you will keep or return.

Guitar Center seems like the best in terms of return policy. Is it bad etiquette to make a bunch of returns? I would hate to inconvenience the seller with my neurosis.

Coming from wind instruments is so much different. I could go to a dealer and try a dozen of the exact same model horn before buying. Doesn’t seem possible here, especially with arch tops (let alone a dozen 175s in the same room…)

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Am I stupid for spending so much on a 175?

I assume you’re using the term “horn” to mean any instrument, and not an actual horn. If you were a horn player, you’d know that a trumpet or sax equal in quality and desirability to a 175 would cost you just as much, if not more. Equivalent trumpets like a Taylor, Harrelson etc are $4k to $5k new, and a used Calicchio is about the same. Even base level pro trumpets like a Bach Strad or top line Getzen are $3k new.

Remember that a 175 is a wonderful instrument, but it’s far from the top tier. Play and price an L5 or a Benedetto for an idea of the next levels up. Then consider that a new top line Monette trumpet (an equivalent instrument in quality to an L5) costs $15k today.

We guitarists are spoiled when it comes to the cost of our instruments. A 175 is a great gigging guitar that will last a lifetime with good care. A similar Eastman will serve you equally well for a lot less. And a top line Selmer alto sax will set you back about twice what a 175 will cost you.

So if you want a 175, they’re wonderful guitars - and they’re not going to get any cheaper.

[Cunamara]

After 45 years of playing guitar, I finally bought a 2005 Gibson ES-175 about six months ago. I am finding it to be my go-to instrument for many things. Is it my very best sounding guitar? No, frankly, but it is the best sounding and most dependably good-sounding guitar in the broadest number of situations. And I really like the ergonomics of it much more than I thought I would, more than any other guitar I have. While it is a "classic" sound, there are a lot of players who sound very different from each other on these instruments: Herb Ellis, Kenny Burrell, Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass, Pat Metheny, Jonathan Kreisberg, (edit: Jim Hall, for pete's sake ), etc. It is a very versatile instrument.

The range of prices is very wide. I see asking prices anywhere from $3250-$5000 (more if we are talking pre-Norlin vintage models) on reverb.com, but I think those prices are frankly aspirational at best. I found mine, surprisingly, through the local Craigslist for less than those asking prices. So I feel very fortunate; I say this not to gloat but to be encouraging that these opportunities are out there. It may take a little patience to find them. This was only the third ES-175 that I have seen for sale in my area in probably 15 years. I think it would be worth driving to check one out in person before paying for it, rather than buying sight unseen from someone across the country and shipping it.

A much less expensive option would be the upper end Epiphone version; I can't remember the specific model name (ES-175 Classic or Custom or something) but it had real Gibson Classic 57 pickups, the same body construction and by reputation sounded and felt very similar to the Gibson. Probably about an 8th or so of the price. If you don't mind the name on the headstock, a good option.

Is it crazy to pay "a lot"of money for a Gibson ES-175? Well, there have been some good arguments laid out about this above. Also, they're not making any more of them and maybe never will.

[Stringswinger]

+1 to post #4 and post #9

Get the 175. You will regret it if you don't. (I own three of them myself and do not want to part with any of them, sorry)

[jads57]

Well do like Pat Metheny and buy an Ibanez PM. Especially if you don’t have the $$$.
For my preference I like the Benedetto Bambino Std. A more updated version of the 175 design. Way more comfortable, 25” scale length, Ebony Fretboard, Way more Feedback Resistant! Not cheap, but worth every penny!

[Jabberwocky]

[Alter]

Also look at Ibanez hollowbodies, they are the non Gibson ones that come closest to the 175 sound. They can hang in all musical situations a 175 can if you don't/can't have the real thing.

[John A.]

Do Google searches of this site along the lines of “ES-175 alternative”, “budget ES-175” , “es-175 clone”, etc. , and you will find hundreds of messages discussing alternatives to an ES-175 and pathways to that sort sound. I suggest trying that and then coming back with narrower questions.

FYI, the site’s search function doesn’t work, so go to Google and enter search terms followed by site:jazzguitar.be

[John A.]

A much less expensive option would be the upper end Epiphone version; I can't remember the specific model name (ES-175 Classic or Custom or something) but it had real Gibson Classic 57 pickups, the same body construction and by reputation sounded and felt very similar to the Gibson. Probably about an 8th or so of the price. If you don't mind the name on the headstock, a good option.

Es-175 Premium. More like 1/4 to 1/5 the price of a Gibson. IMO (and many others’) they nail the sound. The necks are skinny, and the matte finishes are an acquired taste. But if those are not a problem for you, they’re great.

[StefanoGhirardo]

If you are relatively new to the world of archtop guitars I would advise you not to buy a 175 now, even if it is the guitar that inspired you.
Here's why.
Joe Pass has also played other guitars and yet he has always been that wonderful player. You will discover that the sound is, in large part in the fingers and in the interpretative choices of the player. In the meantime your way of playing, especially at the beginning, will evolve quickly, and perhaps also your musical tastes, if only for the tone that along the way you will find beautiful and exemplary.
A guitar less economically demanding than a Gibson 175 will sound almost as good and will allow you, when your interpretative technique is more evolved and you have reached a ceiling of taste, to better orient yourself in the choice, this time with many fewer unknowns.
To give you an idea of guitars that are not too expensive, but with a good sound and excellent playability, you can follow the excellent advice of many here. To contribute I list my guitars: Epiphone Joe Pass, Epiphone Regent, Epiphone 175 Premium, Eastman 503. Each has a different sound and I play them all with pleasure (currently especially the first two). In my case I do not seem to have yet reached either the technical ability or the stability of taste for a particular tone that would justify the transition to a more expensive instrument.

[stolnd]

I assume you’re using the term “horn” to mean any instrument, and not an actual horn. If you were a horn player, you’d know that a trumpet or sax equal in quality and desirability to a 175 would cost you just as much, if not more. Equivalent trumpets like a Taylor, Harrelson etc are $4k to $5k new, and a used Calicchio is about the same. Even base level pro trumpets like a Bach Strad or top line Getzen are $3k new.

Remember that a 175 is a wonderful instrument, but it’s far from the top tier. Play and price an L5 or a Benedetto for an idea of the next levels up. Then consider that a new top line Monette trumpet (an equivalent instrument in quality to an L5) costs $15k today.

We guitarists are spoiled when it comes to the cost of our instruments. A 175 is a great gigging guitar that will last a lifetime with good care. A similar Eastman will serve you equally well for a lot less. And a top line Selmer alto sax will set you back about twice what a 175 will cost you.

So if you want a 175, they’re wonderful guitars - and they’re not going to get any cheaper.

Everything is just a horn to my mind!

In all seriousness. It is absolutely true that pro-grade wind instruments are just as expensive if not more. The difference is the amount of options. Take saxophones for instance. Many pros have played Selmer Mark IVs. Other options exist but by and large that’s the horn you’ll see most often, in my experience at least.

So I can spend $7000 on a Mark IV and sleep well, because I’ve tried ten of them at my dealer’s place and it’s an industry standard.

Guitars, it’s impossible to do that it seems like.

So it’s not so much the money (don’t get me wrong 5k-10k is nothing to sneeze at for me) as much as it is knowing exactly what you’re getting because you have the ability to text things truly apples to apples

[stolnd]

but it is the best sounding and most dependably good-sounding guitar in the broadest number of situations

Thank you for mentioning this! It’s an important consideration. It strikes me the same way, it is a very clean, versatile sound

[stolnd]

You will discover that the sound is, in large part in the fingers and in the interpretative choices of the player

Absolutely, I do not doubt you there for a second!

I’m currently playing a Gretsch Streamliner. It was one of four arch tops available at my local GC, got it for around $250. It’s actually not bad at all considering what I paid! And let’s face it an 175 isn’t going to make me sound or play better at this point.

Really appreciate the thoughtful response. As I improve I’ll keep the options you listed in mind when the time comes to spring for an upgrade.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Everything is just a horn to my mind!

In all seriousness. It is absolutely true that pro-grade wind instruments are just as expensive if not more. The difference is the amount of options. Take saxophones for instance. Many pros have played Selmer Mark IVs. Other options exist but by and large that’s the horn you’ll see most often, in my experience at least.

So I can spend $7000 on a Mark IV and sleep well, because I’ve tried ten of them at my dealer’s place and it’s an industry standard.

Guitars, it’s impossible to do that it seems like.

So it’s not so much the money (don’t get me wrong 5k-10k is nothing to sneeze at for me) as much as it is knowing exactly what you’re getting because you have the ability to text things truly apples to apples

I think you mean a Mark VI, which is "the" classic Selmer sax. They went out of production almost 50 years ago, but good ones continue to bring $10k+ because of their wonderful tone and action. The Mk VI is comparable in quality and desirabiity to an L-5. These are pro quality instruments and lifetime purchases that will carry you through a career in music with proper care and maintenance. There are "better" instruments available, but the practical benefits of going above this level are marginal compared to the cost.

But (as you point out) a better instrument won't make you a better player. Your Gretsch is the equivalent of a Getzen or Yamaha student model horn - you can go very far on instruments like these. Going to a 175 from your Gretsch will certainly allow and encourage you become a better player - but you still have to do the work

[Boze]

If you are relatively new to the world of archtop guitars I would advise you not to buy a 175 now, even if it is the guitar that inspired you.
Here's why.
Joe Pass has also played other guitars and yet he has always been that wonderful player. You will discover that the sound is, in large part in the fingers and in the interpretative choices of the player. In the meantime your way of playing, especially at the beginning, will evolve quickly, and perhaps also your musical tastes, if only for the tone that along the way you will find beautiful and exemplary.
A guitar less economically demanding than a Gibson 175 will sound almost as good and will allow you, when your interpretative technique is more evolved and you have reached a ceiling of taste, to better orient yourself in the choice, this time with many fewer unknowns.
To give you an idea of guitars that are not too expensive, but with a good sound and excellent playability, you can follow the excellent advice of many here. To contribute I list my guitars: Epiphone Joe Pass, Epiphone Regent, Epiphone 175 Premium, Eastman 503. Each has a different sound and I play them all with pleasure (currently especially the first two). In my case I do not seem to have yet reached either the technical ability or the stability of taste for a particular tone that would justify the transition to a more expensive instrument.

I'm quoting Stephano because I second his take and also own most of the same guitars (Emperor, Zephyr Regent, AR503CE), which is just fun to think about.

I vote no to jumping in with a 175 unless you've been playing long enough to know what you like. It's truly a bonus that they hold their value so it's more an investment than a depreciating purchase and admittedly not super risky if you can afford it.

I owned a Herb Ellis ES165 (a 175 but without the bridge pickup, which I never wanted) and moved it ages ago before I grew into the sort of player who'd appreciate it. I never spent enough time or money on amps either, which is another hiccup that can interfere with appreciating a guitar.

Neck shape is important to me and I think we all tend to get used to what we have. Like if you use anyone else's toothpaste it'll just seem strange and vaguely wrong. How long have you been playing and what have you learned about your preferences in a jazz guitar? Like anything else, you'll make better decisions when you have more information and that includes knowing what suits you best.

I adore the 57 Classic I installed in my Epihone Zephyr Regent, which makes it even more just a copy of the 165 I never should have sold. If you like the neck and feel of any lower priced jazz guitar you come across, a 57 Classic makes a big improvement for a few bills. The Gibson pickups are what make those Epiphone premiums such a great value. I really didn't care for the Seth Lover in the Eastman 503 so I swapped it for an underwound 57 Classic and I'm much happier.The two Gibsons I own now both have P90s and I like them fine as they are.

I hated the Emperor's stock pickups too so I replaced them with some Fralin Pure PAFs that are awesome. So I guess think of me as the cheapskate who finds modest jazz guitars and upgrades their pickups. And I guess it's worth mentioning that the two Epiphones and the Eastman combined still cost less than a 175.

[garybaldy]

My '63 with Pat. No. stickers is great but you may want one with PAFs!

[Peter C]

I don't know where you're at with your playing but, as Alter already suggested, just get an Ibanez you like (even the sub-1k $ ones are good) and sleep well. Then come back and ask about a decent combo amp - you need one of these for an electric guitar, right? Then there's string types and gauges, picks ....

[Doctor Jeff]

If you are relatively new to the world of archtop guitars I would advise you not to buy a 175 now, even if it is the guitar that inspired you.
Here's why.
Joe Pass has also played other guitars and yet he has always been that wonderful player. You will discover that the sound is, in large part in the fingers and in the interpretative choices of the player. In the meantime your way of playing, especially at the beginning, will evolve quickly, and perhaps also your musical tastes, if only for the tone that along the way you will find beautiful and exemplary.
A guitar less economically demanding than a Gibson 175 will sound almost as good and will allow you, when your interpretative technique is more evolved and you have reached a ceiling of taste, to better orient yourself in the choice, this time with many fewer unknowns.
To give you an idea of guitars that are not too expensive, but with a good sound and excellent playability, you can follow the excellent advice of many here. To contribute I list my guitars: Epiphone Joe Pass, Epiphone Regent, Epiphone 175 Premium, Eastman 503. Each has a different sound and I play them all with pleasure (currently especially the first two). In my case I do not seem to have yet reached either the technical ability or the stability of taste for a particular tone that would justify the transition to a more expensive instrument.

The question you have to ask yourself is are you WORTHY of a 175? Is some sacrifice worth it to you?

And you may not be at the level where you can appreciate and utilize a great instrument to its capacity, but you can get there some day.

(I am not really at that level, but I'm old enough and have enough disposable income to do it. I had a 175 at age 20, and it was too much guitar for me.)

If you're really starting out and aspiring, I would say first consider the Godin Kingpin 1 or 2, or if your budget allows it the PMC3. Any of these new or newish would scratch the archtop itch and be a good springboard for jazz playing, but without breaking the bank.

[Doctor Jeff]

Absolutely, I do not doubt you there for a second!

I’m currently playing a Gretsch Streamliner. It was one of four arch tops available at my local GC, got it for around $250. It’s actually not bad at all considering what I paid! And let’s face it an 175 isn’t going to make me sound or play better at this point.

Really appreciate the thoughtful response. As I improve I’ll keep the options you listed in mind when the time comes to spring for an upgrade.

The Gretsch Streamliner looks like a decent guitar at a great price. I like/love Gretsches.

If you can find a good Japanese Gretsch like the 6117 or 8 reissues, you will have a great guitar on par with the 175 in terms of quality. I think the mid-price Gretsch range is awesome.

[Bluedawg]

The sax player in my band ordered a Tenor and a Soprano from Rampone and Cazzani in Italy.

He received them about a month ago and loves them.

After watching this video, I want them to make me a guitar ... LOL


IMHO if you have the cash, go for a 175. If you have even more cash, buy 2 or 3 and keep the one you like best.

Good Luck