What beats an L5?

[joe2758]

$5,000 approx budget. Needs to sound good acoustic and electric. Solid top. Full depth. What would you recommend? I may get an L5 but I want to check for words of warning or wisdom here first.

[nyc chaz]

Elferink Excalibur if you can find one.There was one on Reverb this past month for $4,800.The Excalibur is one of the finest built guitars i have ever played and will get you that L5 or old D'angelico sound.

[Stringswinger]

You can get a Campellone in that price range that will give most L-5's a serious competitor.

[mr. beaumont]

A single pickup L5.

Campellone for sure.

If I were in the market for that kind of guitar, I'd also seriously be looking at used Heritage Golden Eagles as well.

[andrew]

I second the Heritage and Campellone recommendations and I'll add a Gibson L-7 to the list. Same basic construction as an L-5, but less bling. You can pick up 'golden era' ones for that price.

[wintermoon]

Nothing.
You might be able to find something you like as much or better, or a guitar that may suit your needs better, but nothing beats an L-5.
except maybe two L-5's

[joe2758]

What are the years of L-5 that I should avoid while I'm shopping? Or is it a myth that certain years are consistently poor?

[wintermoon]

What are the years of L-5 that I should avoid while I'm shopping? Or is it a myth that certain years are consistently poor?

None/yes

[joe2758]

Are L5 studios a good buy?

[wintermoon]

Are L5 studios a good buy?

I've never played one but I'm assuming they're a less blinged regular L-5, so essentially the same guitar.
My thought is, if you're settled on an L-5 and can afford it get a regular one, you won't regret it but you might regret getting a studio model.
I've posted this before but many years ago when I got my first L-5, I was mesmerized by the engraved tailpiece w L-5, all the binding, the 'custom' engraved truss rod cover (even though there's really nothing custom about it) etc, etc.
This was the model Wes Montgomery played, the Rolls Royce of guitars!

[Rickco]

The L5s being worshipped here are fine guitars culled out by top players after having a lot of guitar experience (see if any of the owners here would part with their l5 for 5k) Every L5 is not a masterpiece. The ones they built their reputation on are the older models you will never see <$5k. If your talking CES model there are many guitars you could consider that are in that price range and are as good or better depending on your taste. Rich Severson makes a very good case for this. If you looking for an acoustic L5C you need to start traveling and trying them out, a good one is magic, but many not so much. There are now several very good luthiers that will make you something better for not much more some with long waits but some can still deliver in a shorter time span. If your looking for a great archtop that sounds good acoustic and electric nows a good time to be shopping prices are low and archtop popularity is waning. $5k should get you a no regrets keeper and I wouldnt get to hung up on resale value, if its not rare or perfect its a used guitar. Lastly, a really fine acoustic archtop is hard to find, if you see one for under 5k and dont buy it let me know.

[wintermoon]

The L5s being worshipped here are fine guitars culled out by top players after having a lot of guitar experience (see if any of the owners here would part with their l5 for 5k) Every L5 is not a masterpiece. The ones they built their reputation on are the older models you will never see <$5k. If your talking CES model there are many guitars you could consider that are in that price range and are as good or better depending on your taste. Rich Severson makes a very good case for this. If you looking for an acoustic L5C you need to start traveling and trying them out, a good one is magic, but many not so much. There are now several very good luthiers that will make you something better for not much more some with long waits but some can still deliver in a shorter time span. If your looking for a great archtop that sounds good acoustic and electric nows a good time to be shopping prices are low and archtop popularity is waning. $5k should get you a no regrets keeper and I wouldnt get to hung up on resale value, if its not rare or perfect its a used guitar. Lastly, a really fine acoustic archtop is hard to find, if you see one for under 5k and dont buy it let me know.

'Better' how?
You might be able to get a luthier made guitar that's a little more precisely made.
But I'll bet if you ask someone like Mark Campellone he'll be the first to tell you an L-5 is an iconic guitar and stands alone for what it is.

[Cunamara]

"What beats an L-5" in what way? Playing feel? Tone? Resale value?

In terms of holding resale value, almost nothing other than a D'Angelico or D'Aquisto is going to beat an L-5. There is just no way around it.

In terms of playing feel and tone? Those things are so subjective that an intelligible answer can't be given. I think an ES-175 sounds every bit as good, albeit different, as an L-5; indeed, I would say I generally prefer the tone of the ES-175 when I hear them played by others. I have never played an L5 so I can't compare it to my ES-175 (but I like the short scale, even though I'm tall and have big hands, and I'm really liking the 16" body compared to my 17" guitars). But there are many people who think the feel and sound of the L-5 is very much superior to the ES-175 and I can't argue with them because those things are subjective.

And which kind of L-5? An L-5 intended for acoustic playing or an L-5CES intended for amplified playing? Or a Ritenour L-5 signature model?

[joe2758]

"What beats an L-5" in what way? Playing feel? Tone? Resale value?

In terms of holding resale value, almost nothing other than a D'Angelico or D'Aquisto is going to beat an L-5. There is just no way around it.

In terms of playing feel and tone? Those things are so subjective that an intelligible answer can't be given. I think an ES-175 sounds every bit as good, albeit different, as an L-5; indeed, I would say I generally prefer the tone of the ES-175 when I hear them played by others. I have never played an L5 so I can't compare it to my ES-175 (but I like the short scale, even though I'm tall and have big hands, and I'm really liking the 16" body compared to my 17" guitars). But there are many people who think the feel and sound of the L-5 is very much superior to the ES-175 and I can't argue with them because those things are subjective.

And which kind of L-5? An L-5 intended for acoustic playing or an L-5CES intended for amplified playing? Or a Ritenour L-5 signature model?

I had a es175 for years which I regrettably sold. What I am looking for in the L5 is the longer scale and better acoustic tone. I will be playing it acoustic maybe half the time or so.

[rpjazzguitar]

I've never heard Wes' sound from anything other than an L-5. Not that I've heard it tried on a number of guitars.

I think some of this is emotional. If somebody wants an L5 they might not be satisfied with anything else, no matter how it sounds. I think that emotion has to be respected. Maybe there's a certain magic when you're playing the same instrument as your all time favorite player. And, telling yourself, "this other brand is just as good, or even better" isn't the same thing, even if it's true. It's not just a tool, it's also art.

[joe2758]

I've never heard Wes' sound from anything other than an L-5. Not that I've heard it tried on a number of guitars.

I think some of this is emotional. If somebody wants an L5 they might not be satisfied with anything else, no matter how it sounds. I think that emotion has to be respected. Maybe there's a certain magic when you're playing the same instrument as your all time favorite player. And, telling yourself, "this other brand is just as good, or even better" isn't the same thing, even if it's true. It's not just a tool, it's also art.

very true and a point you won't often see!

[Rickco]

"Better how"? Campellone makes a better guitar for starters, Im not looking for another pissing match with the L5 cult but after hearing hundreds of the best players play L5s over the years mabey 10 of them stand out for exceptional tone. I dont consider many but a few fine Gibsons to share the company of D'An old Epis etc playing the music they were designed to play. The idea that any "brand" is automatically superior is nothing more than fan worship 90% of it is the player. My favorite remark I often hear is "I want that Wes sound" which doesnt have shit to do with the guitar no one will sound like him on any guitar and he would sound like him on a banjo. The guitar dont play you, you play the guitar.

[Spook410]

I guess you already know that a used L5 is more like $7.5K in the current market. That being said, if you want and actual acoustic tone, a Gibson L5 CES doesn't really do that. Different models than a CES may be better as an acoustic instrument but, broadly and there are may be exceptions, modern L5's are made to be amplified. Same with many of the guitars mentioned in this thread. Of course most don't ever play their archtops unplugged and what they really want is some acoustic overtones in their electric sound. Reference threads on modern vs traditional archtop tone. The former represented by the likes of Trenier and Benedetto style guitars. The latter mainly Gibson models (e.g. ES175, L5). Assuming you are looking for Wes/Burrell tones (and yea.. it's more complicated than that.. so what? You have to start somewhere), for $5K I would say a used Campellone would be pretty good.

[wintermoon]

I had a es175 for years which I regrettably sold. What I am looking for in the L5 is the longer scale and better acoustic tone. I will be playing it acoustic maybe half the time or so.

If youre settled on an L-5 and acoustic tone is what you're after an L-5C w a floating p.u. would be the ticket.
If you like the sound of a built in pickup model a Wes Montgomery model L-5 will retain more acoustic tone than a standard twin p.u. CES model.
As has been mentioned a 5K budget likely won't get you either.

[wintermoon]

"Better how"? Campellone makes a better guitar for starters, Im not looking for another pissing match with the L5 cult but after hearing hundreds of the best players play L5s over the years mabey 10 of them stand out for exceptional tone. I dont consider many but a few fine Gibsons to share the company of D'An old Epis etc playing the music they were designed to play. The idea that any "brand" is automatically superior is nothing more than fan worship 90% of it is the player. My favorite remark I often hear is "I want that Wes sound" which doesnt have shit to do with the guitar no one will sound like him on any guitar and he would sound like him on a banjo. The guitar dont play you, you play the guitar.

No pissing match and no one said an L-5 is better than anything else, but you still didn't answer the "how" question I proposed .
A Campellone may be have better QC maybe, but in what other regard?

[Fred Archtop]

Give a look to a L4CES! To me, most undervalued high-end instrument. Maybe not beating and L5 burt veeeery close and with a warmer tone.

Just my 2 cents.

[Bluedawg]

I guess you already know that a used L5 is more like $7.5K in the current market. That being said, if you want and actual acoustic tone, a Gibson L5 CES doesn't really do that. Different models than a CES may be better as an acoustic instrument but, broadly and there are may be exceptions, modern L5's are made to be amplified. Same with many of the guitars mentioned in this thread. Of course most don't ever play their archtops unplugged and what they really want is some acoustic overtones in their electric sound. Reference threads on modern vs traditional archtop tone. The former represented by the likes of Trenier and Benedetto style guitars. The latter mainly Gibson models (e.g. ES175, L5). Assuming you are looking for Wes/Burrell tones (and yea.. it's more complicated than that.. so what? You have to start somewhere), for $5K I would say a used Campellone would be pretty good.

Yup

In my limited experiences most of the L5s made in the last 60 years or so were meant to be electric guitars and good acoustic properties weren't a priority.

The older vintage L5s from the 50s and earlier are more likely to have a good acoustic sound, but most of them are expensive.

Even the newer L5s I've played that were set up as acoustics or with floating pickups didn't really sound like acoustics to me. If you play as many as you can, you might find one that will work.

You might also want to look at Le Grands, my Le Grand is both a great electric and a great acoustic.

Good Luck

[joe2758]

For one day of research these campellones look really really nice. How do you pronounce it?

[nyc chaz]

Yup

In my limited experiences most of the L5s made in the last 60 years or so were meant to be electric guitars and good acoustic properties weren't a priority.

The older vintage L5s from the 50s and earlier are more likely to have a good acoustic sound, but most of them are expensive.

Even the newer L5s I've played that were set up as acoustics or with floating pickups didn't really sound like acoustics to me. If you play as many as you can, you might find one that will work.

You might also want to look at Le Grands, my Le Grand is both a great electric and a great acoustic.

Good Luck

He said his budget was 5K,if you can find a Le Grand for that price please point me to it.

[Rickco]

No pissing match and no one said an L-5 is better than anything else, but you still didn't answer the "how" question I proposed .
A Campellone may be have better QC maybe, but in what other regard?

A Gibson is a guitar made in a factory for a specific price point. The decisions made regarding design, materials even finish are made by corporate business men. Profit is the only goal and has to be to keep the concern alive. The work is done by factory workers trained in specific operations. Even Hutch clocked out at the end of the day. A luthier made guitar is made by one master (hopefully) craftsman for you with no other concern and the finest selected materials available to him tailored to your specs. And doesnt get to clock out till your guitar is done and your happy. "Better" in the way a custom tailored suit from a fine tailor would be compared to off the rack at mens warehouse, from 10' away you wouldnt see the difference but the wearing experience is night and day.