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I'm in need of a small, light (recent shoulder surgery) speaker for practice and gigs, mostly at senior centers, hotel lobbies, small restaurants, outdoor spaces at malls in summertime. It's for a duo, a female vocalist and I play the new Ibanez Pat Metheny hollowbody and also sing. We would use a Yamaha mg06x mixer to accomodate two mics and guitar, then out to the speaker.
As my female vocalist is Berklee trained, her musical interests trend toward Billie Holiday/Ella Fitzgerald/Patsy Cline/Sarah Vaughn style ballads. I sing primarily in the style of Sinatra/Van Morrison/Mel Torme/Lenny Welch. We do this for fun, not professionally, but we still put in a lot of time and effort, and want to sound as good as we can when performing.
Between these two speakers (or something else I'm overlooking), which would work better for my application? There are plenty of videos demoing guitar on both speakers, but very little discussion or demo of vocals. As we are a vocals driven duo, I need something that is at least as good sounding on voice as on guitar. I do have the ability to try out the AER in a store locally, but unfortunately not the Henriksen. I would appreciate the forum's thoughts, hands on experience, recommendations.
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10-17-2024 07:28 AM
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Hi Shekie! I blatantly suggest one of my TOOB Metro FR II cabs together with a Class 4 micro-amp (like TC Electronics BAM200) for an utterly portable and lightweight solution. Such amps are nominally for bass, but they have a very linear frequency response from 20 Hz to 20 kHz. I call them intelligent power amps. Your Yamaha "x" mixer has a bunch of effects, so you don't need a two-channel amp with on-board reverb etc. I use a comparable Soundcraft mixer, to good results. Jazz vocalist Cait Jones from NY recently replaced her AER with a Metro FR II. Its "+" version comes with extra legs for playing in the upright position for intimate settings and omnidirectionality, plus a stand mount for raising the cab to a more natural height for vocals. A lightweight light stand will suffice, as the cab weighs only 4.6 lbs and the amp under 2 lbs. The guitar sound is fine, too. The combined price of the cab and the amp will be around 500$ outside EU, far less than the two alternatives you are considering.
Regards,
Markku
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There's a guy by me who uses the Bud 6, I think a Blues Jr is worth the extra weight. At least for me, I'm trying to get a rich, Charlie Christian kind of sound. If you want a flat Pat Martino kinda sound, the Bud 6 will get you there.
Something else to consider, if you're already bringing a PA, why not get a preamp pedal and run the guitar through the PA? The TC Ampworx is supposed to be a good fender sound, Jonathan Stout uses the JJ-150 for a vintage octal sound, some guys here like the Joyo American Sound, it's $40 on Amazon, might be a good spot to start.
I haven't tried GitterBug's Toob cab, but some members who seriously gig use them.
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I'm confused. What kind of speaker does the mixer currently go into?
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Sorry for the confused wording, I meant that I would come out of the Yamaha mixer into either the AER or Henriksen. I didn't mean to suggest there is another speaker that would be part of this configuration. At the moment there is no "other" speaker as I recently sold my Electro Voice Everse 8 PA speaker that I found somewhat harsh sounding for use with an archtop and for jazz ballad vocals.
Originally Posted by Woody Sound
Unfortunately, typing with one hand has been a bit of a challenge since last week's shoulder surgery.
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I wrote a somewhat confusing initial post, sorry. Since having sold my Electro Voice Everse 8 PA speaker, all I currently have is the Yamaha mixer. My plan is to replace that Everse 8 with a speaker/amp more suited for use with an archtop and for jazz ballad style vocals, like the AER or Henriksen (or something else not on my current radar).
As I'm beginning recovery from shoulder surgery, my main criteria for the speaker/amp is sound quality for guitar and vocals , ease of use, portability.
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But it’s not a very good choice for vocals, and two of the OP’s three sources are vocal mics. He also wants to avoid any unnecessary weight because of a shoulder problem. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
My Blu 6 is fine for vocals with the tweeter on, and it’s essentially a single channel Bud 6 with a Bluetooth input as well. Used as a mono amp / speaker combo, a Blu will do the job very well, since the OP is using a mixer to handle all 3 inputs.
I haven’t heard a Toob Metro FR, so I don’t know how it would compare from firsthand experience. I do love my Toobs, and Gitterbug’s point is well taken that a Metro FR and a BAM200 together cost half the price of a Blu 6. If that’s a part of the equation, you can’t do better for $500. But if money were no object (and since the guitar in question is an archtop), I’d go Blu.
Assuming a Metro FR has the same bottom end as a BG+ (which sounds great with my Ibanez archtop, and it’s a 7), the limiting factor is the amp. I find that the BAM is a little dry and sterile with an archtop compared to the Henriksen electronics, and I think that will matter to the OP. Is a Blu worth twice as much? That’s an individual decision, but I think it is. A better sounding head with enough power to keep two vocalists and an archtop sounding rich and clean (like the DV Mark EG250) might change this equation. But then the combination gets closer in cost to a Blu 6.
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I'm not real "techie", so despite the impressive weight and price of the Toob option, I'm more inclined to buy one speaker/amp to interface with the Yamaha mixer to minimize hookup and usability issues. I'm ok spending what the AER or Henriksen will cost to get the sound I'm looking for. I forgot to mention at least one of the mics is a Neumann KMS 105 condenser, the other the new Shure Nexadyne 8/C dynamic. I envisioned running the two mics into the Yamaha mixer (has 48v phantom power), then out to the AER or Henriksen, and running the guitar cable directly into the AER or Henriksen. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Has anyone used the Compact 60/4 or the Bud 6 for vocals who can comment on how suitable either is for that application?
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Again, I use my Blu 6 for vocals (in smaller venues - it’s not a PA system) and it’s excellent. I have a Samson mixer very similar in size, configuration and features to your Yamaha. The Bud and the Blu are almost identical electronically, so either one should serve you well. Originally Posted by shekie
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Both AER 60/4 and the Bud six have two independent channels, so feeding just one from a separate mixer isn't making the best use of these no doubt excellent but rather pricey amps. Hence my proposal. There's a plethora of acoustic amps out there, some with battery power as an option. For example, Yamaha Stagepas 200 has a built-in 5-channel mixer and costs 588€ at Thomann. The flipside is the weight, some 26 lbs.
Some further Metro 6.5FR II references: Elden Kelly, jazz and acoustic guitar virtuoso, as well as Ari Siikasaari, former jazz guitar teacher at the Sibelius Academy and Helsinki Pop-Jazz Conservatory - now, in retirement, a blooming singer-songwriter, who's finally found "his voice."
Edit: Elden uses a 100W French GSS amp tailored for him to minimize harmonic distortion. Ari and many others are happy with the BAM200. The FR II is rated for 130W max., the 200W amps typically do 100W against 8 ohms.Last edited by Gitterbug; 10-17-2024 at 12:30 PM.
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If you (OP) are planning to use a mixer for the two mics, I don't think it makes any difference whether you use the AER or the Henriksen form amplification as far as vocal quality goes. You'll be using the mixer to shape the tone, and the "mic" channels in both are pretty neutral sounding. I find the guitar input in the Henriksen to have maybe slightly more guitar-amp style coloration and warmth, but it's not a dramatic difference. It's also a little smaller and lighter, which would probably tip the scales for me if I were in the market. Another option in the same vein is the Bugera AC60, which is a knock-off of the AER (but much cheaper). I've played through both and can't tell the difference (though I'm sure the AER is better made and more durable).
FWIW, My own solution to this problem is "none" of the above. I prefer to have guitar and vocals come out of physically separate amplification. I have a TC Helicon VoiceSolo, which can handle two mics and can be mounted on the upright part of a mic stand. It has EQ, compression, and reverb built in with presets geared toward vocals. It's quite small and light. I can get aguitar amp, a case for the VoiceSolo + cables and mics, music stand and a mic stand onto a foldable hand truck. TC doesn't make the VoiceSolo, but Mackie and Behringer both make something similar.
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I have owned and used both the AER Compact 60/4 and the Bud 6 for my guitar (L-5 or a Holo petite bouche) and vocals. Mics are a Neumann KMS 104 for vocals and Audio Technical 831b or Ischell CPJ contact mic for guitar. Both worked well but I still use the Bud 6 and sold the AER, mostly because of the ability to get the sound I like from the Bud 6 more easily than from the AER with the vocals. Good luck!
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Thank you all for your thoughts. Lots of different options to consider. One major consideration is for whatever I get to be easy to setup and reliable. It drives my female vocalist crazy when we gig as part of a quartet and the guy who brings his PA speaker/mixer/pedals sound system is struggling to get it all to work and we are 15 minutes away from performing. I'm not fond of that situation either.
I'm leaning toward the Bud 6, seems like the perfect compromise of size & weight, reliability, ease of setup and use, and especially its sound. No doubt there are less expensive options, but I'm in the "buy it once and get back to focusing on music rather than gear" camp. I will follow up with my thoughts on it once I'm past my RTC surgery and can resume playing again.
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I agree with you. But unless you need the extra channel, the extra cost of the Bud over the Blu seems like a waste for you. The Bud 6 is now $1400 and the Blu 6 is $1100. The only difference between them is that the Bud has an input gain pot on each channel in addition to a volume pot. But that's there to adjust for pickup sensitivity and output - a Bud won't break up like a traditional amp with master volume and channel gain. Originally Posted by shekie
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Haven't tried the Bud 6, but i often play duets with vocalists though a single Aer, and it's great at that. Guitar on one channel, a mic on the other one that serves for vocals and a horn (sometimes the vocalist is a horn player). And i loop the guitar so lots of info for the speaker without problems.
Another candidate to consider is the Bugera AC60, an Aer clone that costs one sixth the price of the Aer and sounds great. I have both of them and mostly gig the Bugera, cause of the reverb and the eq range. The Aer does sound a bit more real, but both are completely giggable.
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With our suggestions, let's not overlook that this choice is being driven by physical need rather than seeking optimal sound production. It's a compromise. He's gotta be able to carry the darn thing to the gig with a bad shoulder.
My suggestion would be that if you are going to try to provide vocals and guitar out of the same speaker, you either want an FRFR speaker or an amp that has both a bass driver and a tweeter. And probably some kind of amp sim pedal for the guitar going in front of the mixing board (to try to make sure that the vocals sound uncolored like vocals and the guitar still sounds like a jazz guitar).
I would be inclined towards the TOOB/BAM 200 option, myself. Hooking a speaker cable from the back of the amp to the speaker is no more complicated as hooking up the mics to the mixing board, etc. And with some Velcro, the amp head can just stay connected to the speaker and it'll all go in a remarkably small bag for portability.
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Thanks for supporting my point. For a duo, a two-channel amp makes the mixer redundant, and vice versa. Everyone using the Metro FR II praises the sound. With the Velcro and short cable provided, the amp and cab become a virtual combo; no need to separate them during transit. OTOH, my sons use a pair of FR IIs hooked to an old Yamaha Stagepas 200 mixer amp as an ultra-light PA for small gigs, parties etc. Originally Posted by Cunamara
BTW, the "root cause" of Toobs and Metros is that in 2003-2014 I had my both quadriceps thigh muscles snapped, my right rotator cuff operated, plus substantial lower back surgery. Each time 3-6 months no touching the guitar, let alone amps. A Fender HRDL was the first to fly out. In came a Henriksen Convertible in 2007. The separate head enabled me to start pursuing my own crazy ideas. Not every frog I kissed turned into a prince. The end results may not look princely either, yet 795 units made so far.
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My wife and I do the same thing into one of these, Genzler Acoustic Array Mini. Since I also own a Bud 6, I can tell you that the Genzler sounds much more full (8" speaker) and clear. (I also own the Pro for really big jobs.) There's also onboard chorus for the guitar channel if you ever want that. You can find some pretty good deals on Reverb/ebay.
Just a moment...
Acoustic Array Mini - Genzler Amplification
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Not quite. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
In addition to the gain control difference cited above, here are more differences:
Bud 6:
Tone controls at 80 420 1600 3500 7200 Hz for each channel
3.5mm auxiliary input jack on channel 1
Bright switch on channel 2
Line-out jack
Blu 6:
Tone controls at 100 350 760 1600 and 3500 Hz
No bright switch
No auxiliary input jack
No line-out jack
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I can see the last three as a cost cutting measure, but why the tone stack difference? Maybe to appeal to the electric side of archtop tone? Originally Posted by dconeill
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My apologies - I should have said "the only major difference". I don't see any of the above as major differentiators, although the line out jack might make a difference to the OP if some of the venues he plays have a sound reinforcement system. If we're going to compare and value features between them, the Bluetooth input on the Blu is potentially of more use than the aux in, since it lets you play music from your phone or tablet during breaks. The Bud also weighs a bit over 1 more pound than the Blu, which might matter given the OP's shoulder difficulties. And even though Henriksen stuff is amazingly reliable, there's a fair amount more to break in the Bud than in the Blu. Originally Posted by dconeill
I don't think there's a significant difference in sound quality between Bud and Blu. The EQ sweeps might slightly favor one guitar over another on occasion, but it's not a dramatic difference to my ears. And the $300 cost difference certainly offset the other differences for me.
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I'm curious as to why the mixer into the Everse 8 wasn't satisfactory.
Was the weight (17lbs) too much or was it the sound?
I tried the Everse 8 for a similar application but didn't care for the sound. It has a lot of EQ capability, but I still couldn't get what I wanted.
I thought the Bose S1 (around 16lbs, I think) sounded better, but didn't have sufficient EQ. Two band and undocumented presets. But, if you're using a mixer anyway, and you're happy with the two band on the mixer, this could be a good choice.
As an aside, I have long wondered why the Blu or Bud would sound better than a Bose S1. The Bud, in particular, has been touted for vocals (which may be why it has a different set of center frequencies for the 5 band EQ). If it's good for vocals, that would seem to imply FRFR or similar.
Anyway, I've heard a single Bose S1 sound terrific for vocals in a pretty good sized outdoor gig (maybe 100 people). I got it to sound good, sometimes, for guitar (running from my pedalboard, not with a mixer). At other times I couldn't seem to get it dialed in.
I've heard the AER Compact 60 sound great for guitar on gigs. I've heard it sound pretty good for vocals in a rehearsal. Never heard it on a gig. I've never heard any of the Toob products live.
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I have owned several AER Compact 60 amps over the years (Once I sold one, I would miss the portability and buy another one, but I eventually switched to Henriksen) and a Blu 6. I now use a Bud 6.
I recommend the Bud 6. IMO, it is worth the extra $300 and one pound carrying weight for the additional features and tone shaping.
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I regularly provide a Compact 60 (II) to the singers who come here for rehearsals and it's alway okay. For gigs in noisy surroundings (receptions or similar, where people are talking) it easily gets to the point when raising the volume, as a result the sound quality starts suffering. I would imagine that, when it's used for vocal and accompaniment at the same time, the sound also suffers. Originally Posted by shekie
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It was a combination of weight (4-5 lbs. heavier than the Bud 6) and the "not voiced for jazz" sound. I found it a bit too bright unless I significantly reduced the treble. It did sound good on acoustic guitar and vocals but less so on the hollow body. I also tried out a Bose S1 pro+ but could not get their Connect App to work on my 2023 iPad and found the bass somewhat muddy, so it got returned. I've also never seen or heard a Toob product although they are certainly well liked on this forum. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I think the Bud 6 is a significant step up sound wise from the Bose and EV speakers I've tried, based on the video demos I've listened to. It will provide the flexibility I seek, as a home and rehearsal practice amp for both hollow body and vocals, as a small, light, all-in-one solution for solo gigs, and by adding a small mixer, as a small, light, easy to set up and operate system for a duo.
The only downside, it is considerably more expensive than the Bose/Electro Voice/JBL/Fishman LB speaker options, but right in line with the AER Compact 60/4 pricing. It's an early retirement gift (from me......to me) and gives me something special to look forward to and to help motivate me during the 3-4 months of P/T I'll soon be facing to recover from last week's surgery.
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Raney and Abersold, great interview.
Today, 11:21 PM in Improvisation