Manzer vs. Parker in the ultra high-end archtop sphere?

[Hogtown Fatty]

Hi all,

For many, many, years-- half my life, in fact--, I've been a great big fan of both of these titans of luthiery; Linda Manzer and Ken Parker.

While ownership of either remains a distant pipe dream, and I'm aware they're fundamentally extremely different, I do wonder, for those with the good fortune of having played/owned both, how they compare.

I know at this level superlative quality abounds, from fit & finish to tone, feel, materials, etc.

Merely just curious your thoughts/experiences.

Ken's aesthetic super speaks to me, as does his sheer inventiveness and out-of-the-box approach- he's a real vanguard to that end. Also, his finishes are the first I've seen on any guitar ever to really nail that old-world master instrument maker look- they have that same look as old string instruments from the 1800's... I really don't know how he does it.

Linda's aesthetic also really speaks to me, in particular some of the more D'Aquisto-inspired/derivative designs, and I love that she studied under both Jimmy as well as Larrivee- not to mention, Metheny (and also Lage) playing them for so many years is one heck of an endorsement. To me, she is the queen of the 80's/early-90's archtop aesthetic- simply love her work.

They are, again, so very different in their approaches and sensibilities, yet compete in the same sphere, and I'd really love to hear more about either/both.

I will own one (or, hopefully, both) someday!!!

Thank you, gang.

[SierraTango]

Welcome to the Forum! Quite a first post. There are many knowledgeable and highly experienced players and archtop experts on the forum. However, I'm guessing very few have been up close and personal with Manzer's or Ken Parker's archtops.
I can only say I played a Manzer at a guitar show many years ago and was blown away by the instrument, both by by the craftmanship and the price tag. Honestly, I don't remember much about it. I will say that perhaps like many on the forum, I gigged extensively in the 90's and 2000's with a Parker Fly Deluxe. I met Ken through Fred Walecki owner of Westwood Music. The Fly was/is a wonderful Swiss Army instrument. I have no experience with his archtops.
Good luck on your quest!

[deacon Mark]

They are not archtops on my radar screen at all but Linda makes a fine guitar. Lots of makers to choose from these days and in the end a Gibson L5 seems to win. I am a traditionalist at heart and the sounds and playing I find the best go in that direction. It really is a matter of personal preference and of course the price of guitars still has to be taken into consideration. At some point I am not in the market my pocketbook is not that deep.

Here is test. Let us assume you have $10,000 cash money to buy a fine acoustic archtop. What guitar would you buy? I know my answer in a heartbeat.

[jads57]

Have to admire Ken Parker’s ability to reinvent classic guitars in a whole new way! I haven’t played one,but they do tend to sound less Archtop in a traditional way,and more flat top like in the clips.

Linda Manzer seems to be more a traditionalist in her approach. I’m sure they are wonderful instruments as well
The thing is what do you want from your acoustic instrument, and what are you using it for? Aside from just bespoke builds, it’s kind of useless if it doesn’t fulfill a musical need. At least imo

[Jim Soloway]

I've played a few Parkers and I recorded this with one that was loaned to me early in his archtop years.

They're lovely guitars and very distinctive in almost every way.

I have not played one of Linda's archtops but I have played a few of her flat tops. The first time was MANY years ago but it remains one of my favorite playing experiences ever.

Given unlimited funds and assuming availability, I'd probably go for a Parker archtop and a Manzer flat top. With Manzer, availability is always going to be something of a problem. Last time I heard anything she had a waiting list to get on her waiting list. Seriously. I think you'd probably find a Parker to be easier to get but they're both pretty close to my age so that means time is getting short if you want to get something direct from the builder.

[gitman]

Of course it's a matter of personal taste, experience and the necessary funds to be able to indulge - over the years I have come to the conclusion that the tone of the classic solid wood archtop guitar (be it a 16, 17 or 18" model) does NOT deliver the sounds I love the most and which drew me to the acoustic guitar from the very beginning (I was 12 years old...) . Now I know without any doubts what moves me , inspires me and makes me want to practice more, play more : the sounds of a fine classical guitar in the hands of an experienced player takes first place, followed by the sweet, rotund and smooth tones of an equally fine lam-top archtop ; third place is a tie between a clean (and close to a slight+natural tube breakup) Telecaster and a semi-hollowbody/ES-335 type instrument.
As sexy and attractive a pure acoustic solid-wood hand-carved archtop might be - nope, not my cup of tea, regardless of the maker or player. I do enjoy the music made with these instruments and I would not hesitate to pick one up for a gig with a Swing Band but I would not spend a lot of money to buy one.
I've come to these conclusions after having been "in the game" for over 50 years so you see that I'm kinda slow in making up my mind... plus I'd rather NOT make the mistake and spend a small fortune on a fine guitar only to realize - after the honeymoon period is over - that the investment is not realized in terms of ongoing inspiration, sheer fun and pride-of-ownership. The satisfaction from just looking at a beautiful object and reveling in it's structural and aesthetic perfection is not enough for me - an instrument is to be played and felt and heard and should not be banned behind glass ...
This comes from a lover and player of fine guitars - collecting is not my thing and I couldn't afford it anyway.

YMMV - I just thought I'd share my own perspective and thoughts on the subject. Tonight I will go see/listen to Pat Metheny on his "Dream Box" Solo-Tour and I'll probably get to hear some of his many Manzer-guitars !

[Navdeep_Singh]

A prominent forum member who knows guitars said that the KP are fine guitars; he A/Bed them against a Bozeman L7 replica. they both sounded wonderful, more or less same ball park. The KP apparently had only one distinct advantage over the Bozeman L7: you could hit it hard when comping and it could keep up in terms of responsiveness.

[Jim Soloway]

A prominent forum member who knows guitars said that the KP are fine guitars; he A/Bed them against a Bozeman L7 replica. they both sounded wonderful, more or less same ball park. The KP apparently had only one distinct advantage over the Bozeman L7: you could hit it hard when comping and it could keep up in terms of responsiveness.

The Parker has several advantages that are not apparent when you play them. Because of the way they are engineered, you can change the voicing of the guitar dramatically by making a few simple adjustments making them very versatile. That's very much a part of the design and one of the reasons why they often sound very different depending on the player and circumstances. I came across this example last night and I was struck by how very different it sounds from what it was like in my hands ... not just a difference in tone that could be explained by the difference in techniques but rather like it was entirely different category of guitar.

[Gitterbug]

Linda Manzer and Ken Parker are just names to me, way beyond my league, needs and finances. The reason I chime in is guitarist Elden Kelly, who seems to be totally unknown to the Forum. Uniting jazz, classical and world music, he is currently very much in demand. Elden has recently recorded video clips featuring Ken Parker's Frankentop, Northfield Mandolins' short-scale acoustic archtops and something from the Blue Guitar Collection. He's done work for Henriksen but also uses my TOOB and Metro FR cabs, always upright. Jazz purists may not like his style but have to admit his virtuosity. Anybody familiar with him?

[Hammertone]

A prominent forum member who knows guitars said that the KP are fine guitars; he A/Bed them against a Bozeman L7 replica. they both sounded wonderful, more or less same ball park. The KP apparently had only one distinct advantage over the Bozeman L7: you could hit it hard when comping and it could keep up in terms of responsiveness.

Well, a bit more to it - I met Ken at the defunct Montreal Guitar Show and I hung out at his booth at subsequent shows as well as at the Woodstock Invitational. Ken is very funny and occasionally hyperbolic, so we spent plenty of time cracking wise and poking fun at each other. Various show attendees would gingerly and delicately play his guitars. Then he'd call me over to play the guitars VERY hard, allowing him to demonstrate his clever adjustable height neck and also to show that it isn't possible to overdrive the tops of his guitars. Lord knows, I tried. I beat the shit out of them while he watched, laughing his ass off. I'd stop when my right arm gave up.

He loved to trash-talk 17" acoustic archtops, so one year I brought my 2004 17" Bozeman L-7 so we could directly compare it to his guitars, which are closer to being 16" wide. A fair comparison because it was a new wood to new wood comparison between two x-braced guitars with no vintage mojo wildcard factor. One very traditional design compared to his design. What a hoot! They both sounded great, whether played with a pick or fingers, but it was not that hard to overdrive the top of the L-7C.

I've also had the good luck to have played a few of Linda Manzer's carved archtop guitars (16", 17" and 18"), and have chatted with her many times. Lovely, positive person. The 17" Jazzcat is very much in the tradition, great sound, like many other excellent hand-built 17" acoustic archops. I've played a few of them. The one 18" I played made me fall off my chair - great guitar. The couple of carved 16" archtops were not to my taste. My only comment on her (or anyone else's) expensive laminated archtop guitars is - why bother?

Sheesh, "prominent form member' - makes me sound old. Wait a minute ... nevermind.

Hi all, ...For many, many, years-- half my life, in fact--, I've been a great big fan of both of these titans of luthiery; Linda Manzer and Ken Parker. ... They are, again, so very different in their approaches and sensibilities, yet compete in the same sphere, and I'd really love to hear more about either/both.

I hope that helps. I say get one of each!

[RJVB]

rather like it was entirely different category of guitar.

Hah, yes. I started that video, went off to pour me a cuppa and caught myself think something like "now that's a nice sounding dreadnought" ...
Funny how his instruments have a reputation for sounding flat-toppy (I don't disagree) but people would still order an archtop from him and a flat-top from Manzer (I also don't disagree with that based on what I've heard of her instruments).

Here's yet another very different sound from a Parker:

And the same piece by the same player on a Parker and a Manzer... (comparing a 18" against an (I think) electrically-aided 16")

Re: Elden Kelly & the Frankentop:

Interesting! I have a hard time deciding if I really only hear the acoustic sound as the 4 (four!) mics suggest, and if Ken also did something to the top rather than only the neck (as the name suggests). It sounds way too responsive for a nylon-strung instrument that was built for steel strings. Of course everyone I asked predicted a resonator couldn't work with nylon strings ("have you seen the gauge of the strings they sell for those?") but I know out of personal experience how well they can work, and how they can remain loud enough to compete with even the most powerful classicals. (Jury is out on that for the KP I guess.)

[ccroft]

Well that settles it! Parker for me :) :) :)

That looks pretty awesome Balan! Parker Green Beam

I was surprised to see Doug Fir was used in the neck. Not that there's a thing wrong with that wood. Just a bit unusual. I guess he believes in a light neck?

You're a lucky man to have such instruments, and I trust they're all getting the love they deserve!

[RJVB]

Not that there's a thing wrong with that wood. Just a bit unusual.

You think that wood is unusual in guitars, how many have you seen built with tulip magnolia wood?

(Bit of an acquiered taste, its colour ... I don't usually think that it's fortunate the back isn't visible to listeners!)

[jads57]

So the sad thing is most players will never use either because of the prohibitive cost of both guitars. So to me this is basically building guitars for the wealthy to fawn over. And that’s fine,because it makes a living for the luthier.
But again it’s such a waste in the scheme of actual music,sadly!

[RJVB]

The players who can afford them could still share the exquisite sound of these ditto instruments that listeners and audiences. The really sad thing here is that they come or will typically be equipped with and played through a pickup so that all the audience can say is "nice sounding e-guitar".

[Jim Soloway]

So the sad thing is most players will never use either because of the prohibitive cost of both guitars. So to me this is basically building guitars for the wealthy to fawn over. And that’s fine,because it makes a living for the luthier.
But again it’s such a waste in the scheme of actual music,sadly!

The prohibitive cost probably doesn't make a huge real difference. Both of the builders being discussed build in small amounts and very slowly so even if the guitars cost a lot less, most people still would never be able to play them. I believe I mentioned earlier that Linda Manzer has a waiting list for her waiting list. The only way to make them more widely available is to have them factory produced but then they would no longer be what they are. At least both of them do have a few in the hands of some really great players so we get to be inspired by them.

[gitman]

You think that wood is unusual in guitars, how many have you seen built with tulip magnolia wood?

(Bit of an acquiered taste, its colour ... I don't usually think that it's fortunate the back isn't visible to listeners!)

Mr. Parker is obviously not interested in many of the traditions that the archtop-world in general is quite hung-up on and he is also in the enviable position where he can pretty
much do what he wants - like proving that a piece of properly dried fir (with the help of a truss rod, maybe some carbon fiber and an ebony veneer) is actually capable of withstanding the constant pressure of the 6 steelstrings. I'm also pretty sure that he just stumbled upon that
old hunk of Tulip Magnolia wood and did not specifically search it out. An experienced craftsman usually knows what a particular piece of wood is good for, regardless of color, figure, rarity etc.
I also watched his assessment and inspection of this early James D'Aquisto New Yorker - he clearly admires that legendary master builder but when he does his own stuff he goes off in so
many different directions, it's extra-ordinary in the true sense of the word...
There are quite a few clips out there where one of his archtops is demonstrated by some good players , both plugged in and unplugged. I did not yet find a single clip where a Manzer (archtop) guitar is heard or demonstrated - beside
some clips of a younger Julian Lage playing his lam-top electric Manzer guitar.

I got lucky recently and secured a ticket for a Pat Metheny Solo concert on his current (almost sold-out) tour and Sunday night I came home totally elated and enthusiastic ! What a magical evening of wonderful sounds and music ...
Pat usually doesn't say much when he's on stage but here he almost gave a lecture, explaining the concept behind his solo playing, whet led up to this and he also talked about the guitars that Linda Manzer built for him over the past 20/25 years. In his case it is clearly Linda's particular skill in interpreting and realizing what he dreams up , what kind of instrúment he wants and the sounds he hears in his head. It is clearly an exceptional situation nowadays where a musician has access to an equally skilled artisan/builder who will create one-off instruments for one particular client, money not being an issue. OTOH I guess that Mr Parker builds what ever he wants to build and there are enough clients waiting to buy what ever he offers.

A lot of speculation here (would that be great if these two were to speak up !!) but it's an interesting subject !

[equenda]

....OMISSISS ........ What guitar would you buy? I know my answer in a heartbeat.

Same for me.

I live a few minutes from Cremona. I know many luthiers and I can guarantee that they all have gigantic EGOs.

Ettore

My WEBSITE

[RJVB]

The only way to make them more widely available is to have them factory produced but then they would no longer be what they are.

No, but John Buscarino and Eastman showed that it's not impossible to bring a more affordable joint-design instrument to the market that's more accessible to working musicians and amateurs with a comparable income.

I did not yet find a single clip where a Manzer (archtop) guitar is heard or demonstrated

Kudos for not seeing the one I posted above, and there are at least 2 more videos about that blue Manzer, plus quite a few about her flat-tops that showed up for me (I think when I search for "michael watts manzer"; I think I also saw an interview he did with her in which some guitar demoing must take place).

I live a few minutes from Cremona. I know many luthiers and I can guarantee that they all have gigantic EGOs.

Hah! Studying lutherie in Cremona is one thing (no idea about the admission thresholds) but to start a workshop there and survive you probably do have to have a bigger ego than the rest of 'em.
*Almost* every successful luthier I know (including one who studied in Cremona, and now works there) has the (well-deserved) ego of a self-assured master artisan but not what I'd call a gigantic EGO.

[Jim Soloway]

I did not yet find a single clip where a Manzer (archtop) guitar is heard or demonstrated - beside
some clips of a younger Julian Lage playing his lam-top electric Manzer guitar.

[Jim Soloway]

No, but John Buscarino and Eastman showed that it's not impossible to bring a more affordable joint-design instrument to the market that's more accessible to working musicians and amateurs with a comparable income.

Ken Parker did a huge joint design project and it resulted in thousands of consumer priced instruments. After a while he burned out on the process and walked away. To craftsmen who get their joy from the art of building individual instruments, coupling with a large manufacturer is a very different experience. It's one that offers material rewards but at the cost of freedom and creativity. At the very least, you have to be willing to be a team player and that's really not for everyone.

[RJVB]

It's one that offers material rewards but at the cost of freedom and creativity. At the very least, you have to be willing to be a team player and that's really not for everyone.

I think you overestimate John B's involvement in the Eastman Cabaret. He collaborated with Eastman to design an instrument they could build and sell as their own with his name on it. He is apparently happy to have a design of his be available for a price and in numbers that he could never afford/achieve, I suppose he does get some kind of royalties for the use of his logo on the label and in the model name but he doesn't lose any time, freedom or creativity to them. The only time and energy he does invest (and charges for) is the QC, set-up and installation of an Ultratonic in the units he sells.

Come to think of it this seems to be just a step beyond Kenny Hill designing Cordoba's "Fusion" line.

[Rickco]

Theres a long list of fine luthiers that are both available and reasonable $ (for a custom hand made instrument) why limit yourself to these 2? Just because Joe Shmoe thinks one is better doesnt mean shit to you not to mention youll never know what you didnt get and you wont be able to sell it very easily. If I was looking for (another) custom handmade guitar to my specs especialy at their prices Id do a lot more looking than Manzer and Parker unless I already had a familiarity with them or their instruments. Oddly although traditional archtop popularity is waning were in a time due to the internet that we can access independant makers all over the world. The quality of custom work coming out of many countrys is stunning and inovative. I grew up and retired in the cabinet and furniture trade trained by the old masters and given their "secrets". The secret is theres no secrets, time on task and dedication is what makes great crafts(persons) you can always find someone that has those qualitys and in line with your own senseability but you need to be clear what you want which means time searching and playing,you might even find an Eastman that puts the whole question to bed for you.

[ccroft]

Jim!! Say it isn't so.... not a team player? :) :)

I know a lot of guys who don't want to work with even one other person in the shop. Happier on their own. They just want to keep it simple, keep their head down and get lost in the work. Can't even keep up with the invoicing.

"...this is basically building guitars for the wealthy to fawn over" seems like a pretty harsh generalization. D'Aquisto, D'Angelico, or even a decent L5 are out of reach for many, yet there's guys here playing them. For every one that sits idle in a case there's at least a few out there getting their due.

You know what... I think I'd rather have them fawning over a $50K guitar than a half million dollar watch anyway.

[mrwoland]

I played both.


I really like Ken's approach to building guitars, and I was so impressed with the bass register: so deep yet clear!
An amazing guitar indeed, never found anything like that in my life.
Tonally, I find the midrange has a slight similarity to a dobro guitar, and that's not to my liking.


I played a new 18" Manzer and wasn't really impressed. It had a weird frequency resonance around C#, so those notes popped out more, especially the one played in the middle of the neck and past the 12th fret.
However, I played Julian Lage's laminated Manzer and it was very, very nice.
And I am sure other archtop from Linda are amazing as well.

When I was able to collect enough money, both of them were on my radar.
To own such a guitar is a great fortune (and responsibility! I feel I have to play mine as well as I can!).


In the end, I preferred the sound of the Mirabella archtops.


But again, I think on some level it's just a matter of personal preference.