Gibson Johnny Smith vs. Trenier Special - YouTube Comparison

[kamlapati]

Happy New Year! I never expected to make it this far, so I'm just considering every day a bonus!

OK, back with another silly YouTube comparison.

This time the guitars are quite similar, both x-braced 17" bodies, 3" thick. But the JS is a typical Gibson from the 70's: a little heavier than you expect but still great sounding and playing. The Trenier is modern, light, responsive, and evenly voiced across its whole range.

You all were really kind to my last post, so I used a little more of my winter time off to make this video. Enjoy and comment!

[bluejaybill]

Lovely playing and great comparison! Shows the differences between the two very well!

[nyc chaz]

Thanks for making the video.I have to say i preferred the sound of the Trenier by a lot.Did you have the same strings on both guitars?

[kamlapati]

Thanks for making the video.I have to say i preferred the sound of the Trenier by a lot.Did you have the same strings on both guitars?

Unfortunately, not the same strings: I gotta qualify this, I am not a fan of flatwounds, in fact over the years I've dissed on them a lot. However, the Trenier currently has Thomastik flatwounds and like everyone says, they are great. The JS has GHS White Bronze, which normally I like a lot.

[kamlapati]

Slow thinking, and another thing...

I don't think the main thing you're hearing is the strings. The thing people like about Thomastiks is that they sound a lot closer to a normal acoustic string, not dull like many flatwounds. However the tension feels low and the absence of string noise makes them feel wonderful under your fingers. Certainly when I was playing my first thought was not about the strings, it was more about the responsiveness and airiness of the Trenier.

Also, I probably like the Trenier better too. But that reminds me of a story: a few years I played an open mic with my Johnny Smith and an acquaintance, singer-songwriter, knows a few vocal standards, considers himself an expert on nearly everything, but especially guitars (plays a Taylor?), came up to me after my set and proceeded to list all the things wrong with the JS, too big, too heavy, too thick, no tone knob, volume knob in wrong place, 1/8" output jack, etc. etc. etc. I was taken aback for a minute, then finally gathered my thoughts and replied, "well, yeah, it's a f**kin' Johnny Smith." And I'll still stand by that.

[D'Aquisto Fan]

Great comparison and nice playing! Bryant's guitar sounds fabulous. I have to imagine flats mellows the tone a bit. Although I'm sure your Excel would sound equally good if not better with a set of BeBops.

[skiboyny]

Again 2 very nice guitars. The Smith is no slouch, it has more edge to it's sound and sounds like Johnny Smith. Both are great sounds and I would hesitate to call one better than the other, just different and worth owning. You have a great collection.

[Marty Grass]

It has been my impression over the years that the JS pickup is brighter than the PAF. More extreme maybe is the Gibson Firebird pickups.

A few years ago I heard someone combine a microphone in front of his archtop with the pickup output. I liked that blend. It's something that occurs naturally when playing in a smaller space.

[kamlapati]

Again 2 very nice guitars. The Smith is no slouch, it has more edge to it's sound and sounds like Johnny Smith. Both are great sounds and I would hesitate to call one better than the other, just different and worth owning. You have a great collection.

I am lucky indeed to get to care for and play guitars such as these!

Yes, no better or worse here, just different. One doesn't buy a handmade guitar from a one man shop unless you feel a strong attraction to the style and the tone, so of course I love my Trenier. It was built knowing exactly how I play, what I like, etc. It's like a custom tailored suit.

But oh my, the Johnny Smith... it might never be my absolute favorite, but I have admired the man, the player, and the guitar since I first started playing in the 60's, so to own that guitar is quite a joy and an honor. It's an emotional connection for sure.

[kamlapati]

It has been my impression over the years that the JS pickup is brighter than the PAF. More extreme maybe is the Gibson Firebird pickups.

A few years ago I heard someone combine a microphone in front of his archtop with the pickup output. I liked that blend. It's something that occurs naturally when playing in a smaller space.

Yeah, probably correct that the JS PU is a little brighter than full size humbuckers. It is definitely true that they capture the acoustic tone of the guitar better. The Trenier has a Lollar Johnny Smith PU.

It's noteworthy that these guitars don't have a tone knob. I keep the volume knob set low to roll off some treble (but BTW, when you do that, the rolloff frequency is higher than with a regular tone pot, old EE here). Also noteworthy that the man Johnny Smith was not a huge fan of Fender amps, he wanted something more FRFR (full range, flat response). To get close to that on the Princeton, I have treble and bass around 2-3. Even zero works. (Check out some of my other vids using a Fishman Artist.)

Agreed on the blending of acoustic and amplified tones for these kinds of guitars. On this recording I was definitely focused on capturing the amp, but for sure with the room mics only about three to four feet from the guitar, it must have a hint of the acoustic tone. Some of my other vids are more focused on capturing that blended sound.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Wonderful!! I also like the Trenier more - a lot more. It just sounds richer and warmer to me. But I think the JS is closer to the sound JS preferred. I think the strings do play an audible role in the tonal difference, though. I find the GHS white bronze strings to sound brighter and a bit thinner than TI flats (I use JS113s on my carved archtops and GB114s on my laminated archie). The wrap on those particular GHS strings has a higher ferrous content than most other strings, so it generates higher output from pickups. I think this accentuates the high end of the frequency spectrum from the wound strings. Since E1 and B are unwound steel, there shouldn't be a significant difference between GHS and TI sets there.

IIRC, JS used a custom set of RW Gibson strings with a flat wound E6. From what I've read, it seems that he was never completely happy with the sound of the Gibson JS. I think he used a GJS on this '67 album, and the tone is close to yours:

When I think of the sound of Johnny Smith, his tracks on Legends (and his early recordings) are in stark contrast to the bigger, smoother sound for which he's best known. The liner notes say that the Legends tracks were recorded in '76, so they may well have been played on a mic'ed GJS. I've never been able to find out definitively, and I don't think I've ever heard a JS played acoustically (except when I got to play a few over the years). So I don't know if this is how they sound.

Thanks for posting this. It's not often that most of us get to hear a comparison of two seriously wonderful guitars, and thoe are both fantastic. I'd love to hear your comparison of these guitars mic'ed and unamplified. I also hope someone will tell us what guitar JS used on the Legends tracks.

[Marty Grass]

Johnny's playing on the Legends album is his best to my ears, and that's saying a helluva lot!

[kamlapati]

and I don't think I've ever heard a JS played acoustically (except when I got to play a few over the years). So I don't know if this is how they sound.

...
I'd love to hear your comparison of these guitars mic'ed and unamplified.

My '77 L-5C and my '77 JS basically look like they were made out of the same trees, and they are about as close acoustically as any two guitars. Yeah, maybe you can hear a somewhat softer attack from the x-bracing and the shorter scale on the JS, but it's subtle.

Nevertheless, maybe an acoustic comparison is due. It's on my list now.

Thanks all for listening and commenting! Makes it worthwhile!

[floatingpickup]

Wonderful!! I also like the Trenier more - a lot more. It just sounds richer and warmer to me. But I think the JS is closer to the sound JS preferred. I think the strings do play an audible role in the tonal difference, though. I find the GHS white bronze strings to sound brighter and a bit thinner than TI flats (I use JS113s on my carved archtops and GB114s on my laminated archie). The wrap on those particular GHS strings has a higher ferrous content than most other strings, so it generates higher output from pickups. I think this accentuates the high end of the frequency spectrum from the wound strings. Since E1 and B are unwound steel, there shouldn't be a significant difference between GHS and TI sets there.

IIRC, JS used a custom set of RW Gibson strings with a flat wound E6. From what I've read, it seems that he was never completely happy with the sound of the Gibson JS. I think he used a GJS on this '67 album, and the tone is close to yours:

When I think of the sound of Johnny Smith, the first recording that jumps to mind is Golden Earrings, which was obviously not played on a JS. But I think this tone must have been what he wanted and never got from the Gibson JS:

Thanks for posting this. It's not often that most of us get to hear a comparison of two seriously wonderful guitars, and thoe are both fantastic.

I assume you are referring to the version of Golden Earrings from the 1967 Verve album titled “Johnny Smith”. I thought I read in the biography of Johnny Smith, written by Lin Flanagan, that he played his Gibson Johnny Smith on those late 60’s Verve albums. I’m not at home right now, so I can’t check the book, but if my memory is correct, Golden Earrings may have been recorded with the Gibson (the last one he owned, which started life as a Citation). It’s also possible that the Legends recordings were made with that same guitar, since they were recorded in the 1970’s. He probably still owned the D’A at that time, so it hard to say which one was used. Some other members who have more knowledge of Johnny and his guitars might know which guitars were used. I’m sure his 17” D’A New Yorker Special was probably one the finest guitars ever made, but he still got that great signature sound out of the Gibson.
Keith
Keith

[skiboyny]

Yeah, probably correct that the JS PU is a little brighter than full size humbuckers. It is definitely true that they capture the acoustic tone of the guitar better. The Trenier has a Lollar Johnny Smith PU.

It's noteworthy that these guitars don't have a tone knob. I keep the volume knob set low to roll off some treble (but BTW, when you do that, the rolloff frequency is higher than with a regular tone pot, old EE here). Also noteworthy that the man Johnny Smith was not a huge fan of Fender amps, he wanted something more FRFR (full range, flat response). To get close to that on the Princeton, I have treble and bass around 2-3. Even zero works. (Check out some of my other vids using a Fishman Artist.)

Agreed on the blending of acoustic and amplified tones for these kinds of guitars. On this recording I was definitely focused on capturing the amp, but for sure with the room mics only about three to four feet from the guitar, it must have a hint of the acoustic tone. Some of my other vids are more focused on capturing that blended sound.

On a princeton I'm pretty sure 0-0 is as flat as a fender gets.

[kamlapati]

Those recordings of JS made my day! Wow, and I love the informed discussion of Johnny Smith. I'm not ever sure he gets enough love from jazz guitarists.

I'm totally guessing, and you all have demonstrated you have better ears and know more than me, but that Golden Earrings recording sounds like his D'A. OTOH, with lots of practice, the right strings, the right setup, the right mics, I bet you could get pretty close to that sound on an acoustic GJS.

[Max405]

Kam, bottom line is, both guitars sound sublime. And personally, I love the sound of your GJS. It is a world class top of the line guitar for a reason. To my ears, it sounds like a slightly more stringy L5. With great string balance. An extraordinary guitar.
Thanks for sharing your babies and your classy style and playing with us.
Joe D

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I'm totally guessing, and you all have demonstrated you have better ears and know more than me, but that Golden Earrings recording sounds like his D'A.

That’s what I’ve always thought. But I haven’t played or heard enough of them to be confident that I was correct.

[skiboyny]

I sounds to me like Johnny Smith started using his Gibson model at the album phase II the timeline is correct, and to my ears a stark difference in sound vs. his D'angelico.