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Can anyone list all the lawsuit L5ces ?
I fancy one ...
I know the Aria pe180 ...
Apparently their are some of these lam
Copy L5s made at the same time in the
same factory
But badged as Carlo Robelli and a few
other badges ?
Is the headstock on all these the L5
size or the Super400 size ?
What would be cheapest way to get into
one of these
Anyone know ? Thanks guys
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03-05-2018 08:45 AM
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Not a lawsuit L5 but it is one in essence: an Epiphone Broadway Elitist. It has a long headstock the size of a Super 400CES.
I got an L5 tailpiece or what looked like one for it and then decided to just keep the Frequensator on.
I’d encourage you to find one, Ping. They were being cleared out for $1650 in 2008. I found one in Japan in 2010 and paid about $1850 for it. The Yen was pretty strong that year. Prices have since crept back up on the used market.
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Some that I know of:
Epiphone Emperor F
Greco L100
Ibanez 2460
I do not know what scale the Greco is...some sources state it is not 25,5. You have to look into that yourself. Here where I live, good L5 copies are not very frequently found.
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Here is the list I compiled when I was hunting for a close L5ces clone:
*Has L5 type tailpiece
Epiphone Elitist Broadway
Yamaha AE1200
Ibanez 2360 (?) 2472, 2460
*Ibanez Lawsuit L5
Antonio H794 Jazzmaster(said to be same as Ibanez)
*Hondo II Fat Boy
*Samick HJ650
*Aria Pro II FA70
*Goya GE 500
GrecoL5
*Greco L100S
*Aria Pro L1000c
Sebring JS20
*Sebring SB300
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I can vouch that my 1983 Epiphone Emperor F gets very close to L-5 territory.
Some sources state that these have carved tops, whilst other state that they are laminated.
Period print material for these does say that they're carved- however many appear to be laminated.
I haven't checked if my particular guitar is carved/laminated - I will take out a pickup and have a look. I'm suspecting laminated.
The top is quite thin - far thinner than a modern ES-175 for example. That makes a massive difference whether laminated or not. It's a far more sophisticated sounding guitar than an ES-175 in my opinion.
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I have played and enjoyed a stunning Epiphone Elitist Broadway and it has the L5ces magic. Mine has stock pickups electronics, all original, and it is a pleasure to play, look at, and hear. If one is not hooked on Gibson as such (and I get it if someone is!) this guitar will really satisfy the itch for a 17" full depth archtop with a 25.5 scale, solid woods, and lush appointments. I have absolutely no complaint about mine. A 100% delight.
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The 80s Matsumoku Epiphone Emperor F is laminated. Till recent I owned one and checked it myself by taking out a pickup. There is nothing wrong with laminated archtops. Most L5 lookalikes are laminated. The difference shows mainly (but not only) when played acoustic only.
Originally Posted by entresz
The confusion over laminated or solid is caused becaude the early Emperors (quite a different model) were solid. Same name, different animal.
My own Emperor F guitars was a very nice guitar. Okay, not as good as my real L5, but than the pricetag is accordingly.
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03-07-2018, 06:53 AM #158Dutchbopper GuestNone of the guitars mentioned in this thread will get you an L5 sound. I owned an Aria PE 180, a Yamaha AE 2000 (with a fully carved top, not pressed), a Samick HJ 650, an Aria FA 70 and I played a bunch of the others mentioned like the Ibanez 2460 etc. Originally Posted by pingu
Some may look like an L5 but they won't sound like one. Except for the AE 2000, they are all laminate guitars. Only the "shape" is the same. But IMHO a PE 180 has more in common with a 175 than an L5 sound wise. Same for the rest.
Best bet is the Yamaha AE 2000, but even that one does not sound like an L5.
Only a L5 sounds like one. There is no cheap equivalent. Not even an expensive one.
That said, I don't own one because I tend to prefer Gibson laminates. So far.
Regards,
DB
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I think Gibson is simply a “brand experience” for many. There are many great Guild archtops of course, and I think some enthusiasts are out there.
The bridge is backwards in the Guild pic above.
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If you want to try the "blind" test with the Aria Pro II PE180, Epiphone Elitist Broadway, and Gibson L5ces, here you go:
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Originally Posted by hotpepper01
I've checked mine - it's laminated as I suspected.
It's a very light, thin laminate. Probably only 1/2 the thickness of the laminate on my Greco ES-175 I used to have.
Here's some period print material on the Emperor claiming 'carved' woods.
This is I suspect where a lot of confusion comes from.
Maybe some very early ones were carved? Many for sale are claimed as being carved however I am dead certain they're laminated.
It doesn't really matter - it still in my opinion sounds much more like an L-5 than an ES-175 whether laminated or not.
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The Epiphone Elitist Broadway is solid wood, but pressed, not carved. Even so, it has a beautiful profile including a lovely recurve at the rim. The 5 piece laminated neck has no scarf joint or heel splice. I'd guess the EEB tone is a tad more acoustic sounding that the L5ces probably because it's a bit lighter.
The Aria Pro II PE180 is a pretty heavy build, laminate, with a more "thunky" tone than the Gibson L5ces, but in a live setting, and often in recording, it's very hard to distinguish from the Gibson.
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I have no idea - the blonde ones are quite rare!
I don't think the price on it is unreasonable either.
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I dearly love my Gibson L5ces, but I am also totally confident that if I were playing live, and someone could not see the guitar, that my L5ces, my Aria PE180, and my Epiphone Elitist Broadway would be indistinguishable. I've done numerous recorded blind side-by-side projects with a couple of different set-ups, and in no case, from the sound, was one guitar easily picked out from the others.
Subjectively, when I play these three guitars, I hear a difference. So far, though, I have not been able to get that difference to show up in a recording or live setting.
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This is from Reverb but I have one just like this:
Mine is from the late 80s, Japanese, but with this same headstock and tailpiece - Washburn changed those across the years.
It's a big and *heavy* guitar! So I'm pretty sure it is a carved one. The sound is amazing, both plugged and acoustically. The neck is not a skinny one but it has a narrow fingerboard. Never gave me a single problem. Maybe be the only guitar I have completely stock and sounds nice and quiet. No hum, no buzz. My frets are worn out but still I can play it without buzz and the neck is dead straight.
I never played a real L5, but I'm pretty sure this one is worth at least some investigation. The current price at Reverb seems to be a nice one too, I've seen these around for usually about 600.
Beautiful Washburn J6 1980's Vintage Sunburst - | Reverb
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I agree, there's nothing like the sound of an L5CES. Quite different from the WesMo to my ears. They're available for under $6k if you search hard enough
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I love the L5ces, but the sound is not massively better than the Epiphone Elitist Broadway or the Aria PE180. On my blind 3-guitar test, no regular trend emerged of any one of those instruments being detected. I think the Gibson is the better instrument, of course, but it can't be reduced to "sound." It's the whole mix of feel, sound, responsiveness, things that only the player really knows. Even on those, the other two guitars are outstanding. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
I agree, there's nothing like the sound of an L5CES. Quite different from the WesMo to my ears. They're available for under $6k if you search hard enough
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Lawson, good on you for posting the comparison test of the 3 guitars.
I'm not sure it's an accurate indicator of the differences though.
a short single line comparison doesn't do all the instruments justice imo, a recording w/ some chords, dynamics etc might tell the story a little better.
I gig w/ a PE-180 and an old L-5 I can easily tell the differences.
but again, thanks for the video!
[btw, that sounds like a transcription of Jimmy Raney's solo on Out Of Nowhere?]
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Here's the thing about the L-5CES, from my POV. Visually, it's almost perfect (I would prefer the Venetian cutaway remain switchless, with said device placed at the center of the upper-left bout ala the ES-175 or Les Paul, or near the knobs like the ES-3xx series, but I have made my peace with that). It's just drop-dead gorgeous. It's a classic design in its own right. Raymond Lowey with a clean sheet of paper could not have done better. The fact that in the right hands it sounds as good as it looks just completes the picture.
I'd really like to have one, and have come close to taking the plunge, but at this stage of the game, it ain't gonna happen, and I'm OK with that.
As far as the look-alikes go, I would be more than happy to have one of those. Beauty is as beauty does, I suppose. There's something about the architecture of the instrument, as so well-described by rpguitar, that makes a harmonious whole, whether hand-carved or not.
If we are still around in three hundred years, people will still be making guitars that look like the L5-CES, I predict, and the remaining originals will command really hefty prices. Stock up now, while you can.
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Agreed, but I think by the time YouTube has mugged the audio pretty badly, it approximates what happens playing live. We've all commented from time to time that when you play live, esp. in a band, a lot of refinement of the tone just gets lost. I think of that as the 85% rule. 85% of my tone will get over, the rest will perish to interference. that being the case, I doubt playing live that the sound alone would be that different amongst the three guitars, to an audience. But to the player, it's different. I really think of the L5ces as providing a player experience as much as an audience experience. It's pretty incomparable on that score, even compared with superb instruments like the PE180 and the EEB. Originally Posted by wintermoon
I think the L5ces is the much finer guitar ultimately, but to narrow it down just to tone I think misses something.
And yes, that's the Raney solo on "Out of Nowhere" from the Jamey Aebersold book. I just love that solo. it's everything I just can't seem to do when I try to improvise. I used it to insure uniformity in the playing amongst the 3 guitars. that's why on the video the transition among the 3 is virtually seamless (I was kinda proud of that).
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The results were no better than random guessing would have gained. There were a good many very nice descriptions of the various tone qualities, and some got it right, but each of the three guitars ended up getting picked as the best, or as the Gibson. Originally Posted by DMgolf66
As I've said, this didn't end the conversation at all, rather, it accelerated it. What makes the L5ces, or the ES175 or even the ES335 is not any one single thing like "sound." You can nail a decent pickup on a board and get 80% of "the sound"--the Epiphone Premium ES175 illustrates that. A well made body, a competent neck, and Gibson 57 Classic pickups and you are very close to "there." But the Gibsons have a blend of all the variables in a soup that is really more than you'd get just copying each feature.
But I'm well aware that, owning now a nice little harem of Gibsons, and finding them all deeply rewarding guitars to play, I am rapidly becoming an unreliable judge of quality. Playing these Gibsons has created a bias that I have trouble overcoming.
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Here my comparison video of the Aria and the 175 - to me very different. But I agree that the Aria doesn't sound like the L5 either. Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
Agreed. And this goes even more for the 175 - there are so many copies and nothing sound like the real thing IMO. Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
BUT I also believe that it's mostly us guitarists who hear and feel the difference - for my wife my last 10 guitars sounded the same although there where floating pickup carved guitars and laminate set-in. I don't blame her - we're talking about these 5% difference, but for the listener the difference would start between a L5 and a Stratocaster with overdrive
175 and L5 are identical for 95% of the audience
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That's actually the point I was trying to make. Once the guitar's sound has been mugged by YouTube compression, or eaten by the venue's acoustics, or interfered with by the crowd sounds, or drowned out by the band... it's about 80% of the sound that comes over, and the L5ces and the top-end clones sound pretty close. Originally Posted by jzjazz
...
BUT I also believe that it's mostly us guitarists who hear and feel the difference - for my wife my last 10 guitars sounded the same although there where floating pickup carved guitars and laminate set-in. I don't blame her - we're talking about these 5% difference, but for the listener the difference would start between a L5 and a Stratocaster with overdrive 175 and L5 are identical for 95% of the audience
BUT for the player, it's different, and of course that has a great impact on how we play. I play better on my L5ces.
I do think the sound of the ES175 "type" and the L5ces "type" is noticeable to more people. My wife sometimes will hear a tune in the car or when I'm listening to jazzradio.com and say "Hey that sounds like that pointed thingy guitar you play" or "that sounds like your blonde guitar" and it nearly always sorts out either to a 16" laminate sound, a 17" set-in pickup sound, or a floater sound. She gets that much of the distinction unless there is a lot of processing that has gone on.
But beyond that, the difference is mainly for the player, I think, but that difference is huge since the player is the key.
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But which version of the L5 do you take as definitive - there have been quite a few.
And each guitar will sound different in different hands.
I pointed out a couple of years ago in a previous incarnation of this topic that when a friend A-B ed his new WesMo L5 against my old Yamaha solid top (confirmed by a very well-regarded luthier, but not hand-carved tap-tuned I'm sure), he was heartily sick - the Yamaha was much closer to the L5 sound he had in his head, and the neck on the Yamaha was much more to his taste. He was so sick he wanted his traded-in 175 back! I had a couple of high end Ibanez L5s too, but the Yamaha really did sound like the real deal, my Ibs not at all, though others might.
I've gone off the L5 size these days, basically because I travel so much and it's a pain to lug around.
I know the Gib brand does arouse a lot of emotion in many people, and not just people from the US. I was that way in my 20s. But these days I feel the opposite. Sporting the Gib logo is something like wearing a Gucci loafer - sends out a message I wouldn't want to send.
On a slightly different tack. Now that digital amp modelling is commonplace, I wonder how long it will be before we get digital guitar modelling. You really will be able to play an L5 (or anyrhing else you fancy) on a Tele. Now there's a thought for a tech entrepreneur.
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We already have digital guitar modelling - check out the Line 6 variax - would love to have a play of one. Looks fun.
Personally I'm fairly indifferent to the brand of the guitar - if it's a good guitar, it's a good guitar - it really doesn't matter what it says on the headstock.
There's no denying that anything with "GIBSON" on the headstock is going to be easier to sell than some MIJ Epiphone/Yamaha/Aria etc. I think of Gibson as being a bit like Mercedes Benz - made the best of the best years ago - but kind of lost their way. Mercedes-Benz sell perfume. Gibson decided to become a 'lifestyle' brand.
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