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I have a Godin LG loaded with Gibson P90s, all mahogany body and neck. I just love the guitar, but for the last few months it will not stay in tune. I put new Spezel tuners on it did not help. Then I took it to two different Luthiers and had the neck check out and everything, and both said it was okay. You can play 2 or 3 songs and it will go out of tune. I took it back the 3rd time had the whole guitar check out again and setup, still the same thing. I really baby this guitar, I don't play metal are abuse it. I just use it mostly for jazz and blues, sometimes I use a little overdrive. I really hate getting rid of it, but I don't know what else to do. Any you guys know why this could happen.:confused
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01-21-2011 09:43 PM
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Have you tried changing the strings? I don't mean the set, I mean the brand. Could help. Have you tried lowering the pickups? Those magnets might be pulling the strings if they're too close. I presume it's actually strung properly and the strings stretched properly? Badly strung, I mean that the winding is wrong at the machine heads.
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Well, the Sperzels eliminate the possibility of excessive turns around the post - unless you load the Sperzels in an odd way.
1. How many turns of string are around each post. Less than a single turn is optimal with Sperzels (and other tuners as well for that matter).
2. Can you first completely describe the problem. That is to say, which strings go out of tune, in which direction and by approximately how much?
And just as a long shot - where are you located?
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Yes I have, I've used everything from Dean Markleys to Elixirs, I've been playing 40plus years.20 of those years have been for church and as a professional. The pickups a little over 1/4 in from the strings, they been that way before this all started. The last two times the Luthiers put the strings on it. I have never had this kind of problem before. I have had a neck twist on me, and I have had to change out cheap tuners. I always use Sperzel.
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Yes and can we assume that you are always tuning the string by going below pitch and then tuning back up and "into" pitch? If you tune from above pitch and "loosen" the string down to pitch, slipping becomes much more likely.
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The tuners were put on buy a pro, the same way the old ones came off. A single turn. The guitar seems to go flat. The strings I notice first are both E strings about the same time, then from the bottom up, weird right
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yes I'am
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Yes I always tune down then up.
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OK, so I understand that you are a long-time player, but using the so called "beginner's mind" as a tool, bear with the seemingly rudimentary questions.
1/4" is plenty to suggest that there is very little chance that PU magnetism is in any way involved.
I am glad that you are happy with the tuners, but Sperzels - while extremely fine, have a mild quirk. It is probably unrelated to your problem, but worth noting.
Bob Sperzel would likely recommend tuning down to pitch, but the advice above to tune UP to pitch is almost always better unless you have a Bigsby or Strat-type vibrato, which is another can-o-worms entirely..
So:
1. Make sure your tuners are well locked.
2. Tune UP to pitch. If you overshoot, then tune down at least a full 1/4 turn (really, a full 1/4) on the tuner and come back up.
3. Now pull each string a good 1" or more away from the FB at the 12th fret.
4. Tune back UP.
5. Pull again.
6. Tune UP again.
Now try it and let us know.
Again, (in my opinion) forget the decades of solid experience and go with the beginner's mind to find a pain-in-the-patootie problem.Last edited by NiAg; 01-21-2011 at 11:12 PM.
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Sperzels use an unusually small diameter post. This works very well with their 12:1 gear ratio - making it a finer tuning action at the button than many higher gear ratio tuners.
This does have an unusual consequence in my opinion.
The string has less rotational leverage on the tuner post than on most tuners.
Often this allows the gear lash between the worm and pinion to become a practical problem when the string does not tend to pull the pinion up against the worm gear. It is a small issue, and certainly no knock on Sperzel tuners. But it does bear some care when tuning.
The total lash projects to about a 15 degree turn at the tuner button (which is common for most tuners), so you have to be sure to go well past this 15 degrees to ensure that the lash, internal friction, and the relatively weak rotational force of the string on the post does not thwart your 'down-then-up' tuning.
All in my opinion, and again - not in any way intended as a knock on Sperzel products, which are very well designed and built.Last edited by NiAg; 01-21-2011 at 11:42 PM.
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More questions:
How do you measure pitch when tuning? What device, if any, do you use and what exactly do you measure? What notes on what strings?
How is your nut set up? How does is fare in the nut height test here:
Nut Action
Check and advise if you want.Last edited by NiAg; 01-21-2011 at 11:12 PM.
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I tried every thing you said and it went out of tune about the 3rd song, to tune it I use a Boss Tu12 are a Korg GT-3 . We have also put it on a Peterson Strobe tuner. The other stuff you ask about the luthier check out each time and said was okay. I might call him and ask him to keep it a couple days and play it, so he can see what I'am talking about.
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ok.. just so I am clear. All strings in tune. You play 3 songs and all the strings go flat? You tune them up, 3 more songs and flat again?
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I wish you and your luther good luck on this. In my opinion, it is always solvable - just sometimes a little more thrilling.
I must say that the description sounds a little incomplete - but leaving it with the luthier to sort out will most likely be a good idea. Again, best of luck.
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I am going to leave it with him Monday. He talk like it could be a trust rod problem. I said 3 songs , but some time more but a lot times right in the middle of one song it will go out of tune. I loaded this guitar with some, P90s some guy took out of a early 60s model Gibson Goldtop LP. It was going to be use just for blues and some southern rock, but found it sounded good for jazz and anything else. I wonder if it came down to it, I could get a neck from Godin.
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Hmm, this goes beyond the ordinairy causes for guitars going out of tune.
Directions I am thinking in:
- neck: can it move? Connection body-neck slowly giving away (would also increase your action though), trussrod (maybe the nut slips?!!?). I can hardly believe the luthiers would have missed that though...
- strings: I have had a string slowly unraffling (is that an English word? Sorry if it's not) the ball-end.. but that would concern only one string then
- bridge: is it going down?
- body: top sinking?now
- tail-piece: are the nuts holding the string-retainer in place slipping?
- Top nut: strings are "sticking": try to put some graphite in the slots
Maybe it's all a bit far-fetched, but you never know...
The most probable would still be the tuners I think, inspite of them being Sperzels. You could change them for another set to see what happens.
Otherwise I am puzzled...
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I hope I find out after Monday, he going to keep it a week tune then play it. I didn't pay very much for the guitar, but I really like it. When I get it back I will let you guys know.
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The LG is a solidbody, so we can set aside notions of the top sinking.
Temperature change would be one of my first guesses. If you take a guitar out of a case, then tune it and play it on stage, the tuning will often shift due to temperature changes.
If there's a truss rod problem, you'd probably be noticing excessively neck relief.
Brand of strings, tuning methodology, problems with the tuning machines should be the first areas to check.
Also, if you're using heavier gauge strings than the guitar was originally set up for, and the nut slots haven't been enlarged, that's another potential sources of tuning problems. If the slots don't allow the strings to move freely, you can tune up and they'll shift...about 3 songs in.
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Which reminds me of another "trick" involving the nut. If the nut slots are the correct size for the strings, it never hurts to put some graphite in the slots under and around the string. This provides lubrication for the string and helps prevent it "catching" in the slot as you tune. The easy way to do this is to loosen the tension on a string, lift it out of the nut and use a no. 2 pencil to mark in the slot or even scrape a little of the graphite off of tip of the pencil.
I have played a lot of cheap guitars over the years and have almost always found a way to get them to play in tune. I have had a very "hard" (hard attack with a plectrum/pick) rock and blues style at times and expected to check the tuning during the first few songs of say a "set practice" but nothing like the trouble it sounds like you are having. With "cheap" tuning machines, I always made sure I had several winds of string on the post. Rather than worrying about it allowing slippage, the friction of the string against the "grommet" would keep the machine from slipping after any string slippage was overcome.
All that said, I have NO idea what could be wrong with a good instrument like yours with even better quality tuning machines having been added.
My aged amateur opinion would lead me to believe it's not a truss rod issue as mentioned above, but who knows?
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Sounds a bit like one of the problems I've had with my ES-339.
You've tried all the sensible and obvious solutions. Apart from possible effects of temperature and/or humidity, I can only think that the neck moves a bit every time you play. I've heard of this problem with Gibsons, but not Godins. Also, had you customised the guitar in some way when this problem began, I wasn't clear from your OP?
Good luck anyway, and keep us posted about the outcome.
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I've tried lubricating the nut. The only change I've made to the guitar, was taking out the hot Seymour Duncan SP3 P90s and replacing them with Gibson P90s. And putting the new tuners on it. It is going to the shop tomorrow, and staying with him a few days. He is going to tune and play it and give it a work out. He swears he will fine the problem, and since he has work on it once before he isn't going to charge me.
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You guys won't believe this, I woke up at 3pm I work nights. I got a call the guy who work on my guitar found what was wrong. He had never heard are seen this, three of the Sperzel were screwed up some how from the factory. I haven't seen them yet. He took them back to where he got them and they replace them without cost. Something about a gear was strip, I don't know are care as long as its fix. Anyone ever heard of that before.
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I thought that you'd put these tuners on because of the problem you were having? Even if the tuners are faulty, they're not going to be the cause of your original problem are they? Maybe I misunderstood something.
Originally Posted by gary mitchell
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I did put those tuners on because the guitar was going out of tune all the time, that was what was so strange about it. It makes me wonder why the tuners I bought were not notice when I took it in again. But its fix and they replace the tuners free and fix it free. I'am HAPPY
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And I'm happy for you - if more than slightly bewildered by the seemingly unlikely flow of reported circumstance.
Glad you are happy with the guitar, which is the important thing.
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Raney and Abersold, great interview.
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