How much neck relief for Archtops?

[Kuz]

I usually like the necks on my Archtops dead straight with low action (between 3.5-4/64ths). My Heritage archtops (two Golden Eagles, 575 Custom, 525) are all plek'd and have no buzzing at this low action.

I noticed that when I checked the relief (fret the 1st & last fret and then measure the relief at the 9th & 8th) that the strings were just barely clearing or even still touching the frets.

SO I loosened the truss rod so the strings barely cleared. This also allowed me to lower the saddle.

I was shocked to hear that the guitars seemed to open up more! This shocked me because the action is the same measurement, and the strings weren't buzzing at all before.

SO THE QUESTION IS HOW DO YOU GUYS SET UP YOUR GUITARS???
1. DEAD STRAIGHT NECK OR SOME RELIEF, AND WHAT IF ANY AUDIBLE DIFFERENCES DO YOU HEAR?
2. DO YOU LIKE THE SADDLE ELEVATED OR LOWERED? (I read where the trend is to a higher saddle for my of a break angle to the tailpiece. AND this was supposed to improve the tone- louder, ect.)

Thanks,

John

[oldane]

I think you will get some rather different answers, because this is really a matter of personal taste. Often a discussion of this matter can amount to almost religious dimensions. Some prefer a straight neck, while others prefer some relief. One thing is for shure: When fretted the string should not be touching any frets between the nut and the fretted position. If it does, you will have to use more force to fret the string, and buzzes are likely. That calls for a not too low nut height and/or a slight relief.

Personally, I prefer a little relief - more relief with higher action, less relief with lower action. On the archtops I use for acoustic rhythm plying, I set the action to about 3/16" (13-56 STRINGS) and adjust the relief so there is about the same fretting resistance all the way up the neck. The final tunig of the action comes after the setting of the relief. Even on my electrics I don't like the action too low, and have it set around 1/8" (12-52 strings) and still with a little relief, though less than on the acoustics.

I have no doubt that others will chime in to explain why I am completely wrong in my preferencies.

[Retroman1969]

Chimer #2,
As oldane said, no way is right or wrong, unless it's buzzing on the higher frets while playing. My personal preference is basically the same as the OP's: Dead straight neck, and as low an action as I can possibly get away with. For me it equals faster, more accurate, less fatigue, and I don't notice a major difference in tone.

[hot ford coupe]

In my case, as my arthritis progresses, I find I have to have a straighter neck with the lowest action I can muster. Otherwise, my left hand will cramp and I can't even fret small chords.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Am I right in remembering that Bob Benedetto advocates zero neck relief?

[oldane]

Am I right in remembering that Bob Benedetto advocates zero neck relief?

He did in his video on archtop making. Others advocates relief. He also said that the string between the nut and the fretted note should not touch any fret.

[Gramps]

I like a bit of relief but it really depends on the instrument and player's playing style.

[helios]

Here's a slightly different take on set-up/releif by Mr. 335's (Larry Carlton's) guitar tech. Skip to: 3:05--4:08 for the set-up part. Cheers, Jeff

[jzucker]

a local luthier setup george benson's guitar recently. ZERO relief on mr benson's instruments.

[Patrick2]

I too am in the zero relief camp. "straight as a laser".

[Kuz]

Thanks for the input guys. Maybe I had some slight back bow on the neck and didn't realize it. I too like the necks as straight as possible but sometimes sight can be decieving. The very slight relief I added is no where near what many would consider "relief".

What about question #2 .... Saddle height and does this break angle effect tone/volume?

[hot ford coupe]

From what I understand, the higher the saddle, the higher the resultant action, the louder the guitar. Tone also does change but I think that's related to the increased volume. Volume was the reason Freddie green had a 1/2 inch action. Also, the higher the action, the less chance you'll buzz on the lower frets when you hit the strings hard.

The break angle is another thing. From reading some articles, the sharper the angle, the louder the string was supposed to be. That was the reason Gibson put out the 6 finger tailpiece; so they could balance the string volumes acoustically. I've also read that the angle doesn't mean anything. I just don't know enough about it to give an opinion on that.

[fumblefingers]

Am I right in remembering that Bob Benedetto advocates zero neck relief?

works on mine. acoustic tone is very lively too. Thanks Bob!

[oldane]

Also, the higher the action, the less chance you'll buzz on the lower frets when you hit the strings hard.

That's another reason for me having a bit of relief. It will get the strings a little farther away from the freets on the lower frets. With a straight neck the strings will have greater tendency to buzz on the lower frets than on the higher frets. With relief that can be balanced out. That can also be achieved with a higher nut and a straight neck, but in my opinion the higher nut will give an unnecessary stiff action in the low positions. With relief the stiffness of the action will be more equal everywhere on the fretboard. When the "buzz threshold" is levelled out by the relief, there is also that feeling of even action. ..... at least that is how I feel it on my instruments.

Many years ago, Gibson used to advocate a slight relief, and they stressed that guitar necks were "not identical to violin necks". But again, many great players and luthiers prefers a straight neck.

[hot ford coupe]

Agreed an all counts.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

From what I understand, the higher the saddle, the higher the resultant action, the louder the guitar.

Do you think it's louder because you can play harder without buzzing, or louder for some other physical reason in the guitar itself?

[oldane]

Do you think it's louder because you can play harder without buzzing, or louder for some other physical reason in the guitar itself?

The higher the action, the harder you can pick without buzzing = louder volume. A higher action will also give a higher downward pressure on the bridge, and that may also play a roll, but I think the first is the most important.

Too high a pressure on the top may "choke" it, depending on it's thickness. My Benedetto Fratello, which has a fairly thinly carved top with X-bracing, works better with 12-52 strings than with 13-56, and it works better with more delicate picking. My Triggs Master 400 Stromberg copy with a thicker top and parallel bracing takes heavy strings well and with a high action it can take a very robust picking and it is thus better suited to the old fashioned "Freddie Green" rhythm playing - loud and punchy. It is NOT the ideal guitar for fingerpicking, though (was never meant to be).

[DaveS]

Performance of the acoustic box is affected by so many things, but it is helpful to know the downforce of the bridge as you make adjustments. Each guitar will probably have an ideal downforce for it's construction. If you're interested, you can calculate it (F) if you know string tension (T) and, most important, breakover angle (A, usually 10 to 15+ dgrees)). So.... F = 2T(sin(A/2))
I don't encourage making a lot of changes because each instrument will be designed & built to specific parameters, but FYI, a set of 13's and high breakover (whether from excessively high action, high arch, high bridge/neck angle etc) can exert over 50 lbs downforce.... maybe choke it as mentioned. Lowering tension (12's?) and/or lowering breakover (lower action, raising tailpiece) might get you to 25 lbs downforce & things open up beautifully. For example, if the guitar sounds great but you want higher action, you can work backwards to a new tension (ie strings) that will give you the same downforce (which is all the top cares about.)

[spiral]

I like a pretty flat neck generally but i just discovered something i've never experienced before. When hitting an open G, and fretting the 6th string on a Bb, the string behind the fretted note would vibrate sympathetically and buzz the fret! There was no normal fret buzzing, except for behind that one note. Putting in just pinch relief in the neck solved it. So for me it is "a little less than perfectly straight".

[spiral]

Lowering tension (12's?) and/or lowering breakover (lower action, raising tailpiece) might get you to 25 lbs downforce & things open up beautifully.

Whoa this is blowing my mind. So there is a balance of ideal string pressure, or sweet spot? I always thought on acoustic archtops it was "heavy as you can stand". Sounds like a fun experiment.

[Klatu]

Performance of the acoustic box is affected by so many things, but it is helpful to know the downforce of the bridge as you make adjustments. Each guitar will probably have an ideal downforce for it's construction. If you're interested, you can calculate it (F) if you know string tension (T) and, most important, breakover angle (A, usually 10 to 15+ dgrees)). So.... F = 2T(sin(A/2))
I don't encourage making a lot of changes because each instrument will be designed & built to specific parameters, but FYI, a set of 13's and high breakover (whether from excessively high action, high arch, high bridge/neck angle etc) can exert over 50 lbs downforce.... maybe choke it as mentioned. Lowering tension (12's?) and/or lowering breakover (lower action, raising tailpiece) might get you to 25 lbs downforce & things open up beautifully. For example, if the guitar sounds great but you want higher action, you can work backwards to a new tension (ie strings) that will give you the same downforce (which is all the top cares about.)

Best post ever.

[valriver40]

In my case, as my arthritis progresses, I find I have to have a straighter neck with the lowest action I can muster. Otherwise, my left hand will cramp and I can't even fret small chords.

i have the same problem so all my guitars are adjusted with straight necks and low actions.

[oldane]

I like a pretty flat neck generally but i just discovered something i've never experienced before. When hitting an open G, and fretting the 6th string on a Bb, the string behind the fretted note would vibrate sympathetically and buzz the fret! There was no normal fret buzzing, except for behind that one note. Putting in just pinch relief in the neck solved it. So for me it is "a little less than perfectly straight".

Gibson has said exactly that for decades. The string behind the fretted position should NOT touch the frets or it will buzz.A litttle relief takes care of that.