Which Tone caps work best?

[jason30]

Hi,
I have a Gibson ES-335.. pretty good instrument but it's a little too trebly for my taste. How do i chose the right tone caps to replace the caps that are currently in it? This 2007 model lacks the tonal characteristics that were present in older model Gibsons(in my opinion).what do you recommend for warm tones? .047? Sprague? Orange? Help!
Thanks

[robertm2000]

And these capacitors are all of 7 or 8 cents at Mouser or Digi-key.

[Flyin' Brian]

This one is my latest favorite:

Fender Guitar Upgrade Capacitor 0.02MFD 50V IC Standard and more Guitar Pickups & Parts at GuitarCenter.com.

Read the text about "Integrated Circuit (IC) capacitors are known for their musicality."

The 203 means .02uf and the M means +/- 20% tolerance. (Known as the "musicality" tolerance, I guess.)

And then the remarkable user testimonial.

This is a garden variety ceramic disk capacitor from "Illinois Capacitor" who have the oft used initials "ic". As far as I know they have a great corporate polka band, but are otherwise unknown for their "musicality".

And this twaddle from Fender, who should know better.

This component is a cheap, serviceable capacitor and in no way an "integrated circuit" capacitor.

And then people actually propagate this stuff on a forum as, "I read somewhere,..."

I mean, come on,...

Chris

The average person will never hear the difference between two different types of caps of the same value in a blindfold test.

I used to obsess over stuff like that when I was younger. I don't anymore...not because I'm smarter with age, but because I have less lifetime to screw around with trivia.

[krusty]

Guitar Tone Capacitor Reviews

[Funkwire]

Orange Drops are made by Sprague...that's what I use. They're cheap, and do the job. Although I have a couple of guitars that still have the green "chiclet" caps and they sound good as well.

You might look into changing the pots as well. I'm not sure about 335s, but Gibson uses 300k pots in LPs. 500k pots would help cut some of that treble.

[aniss1001]

Damnit Brian, you beat me to it. Actually I was the one who made Chris aware of these socalled "integrated circuit" capacitors. This was his initial reaction when I did. Not as funny as the quote Brian posted though. Hehe.

So don't worry about the type but rather the VALUE. And that rather depends on what you wan't to ACHIEVE by changing the cap?

Another member mentioned lowering the value of the cap here.

Personally I ended up installing a completely different type of tone circuit known by the charming name greasebucket.

I hardly think you can expect a WARMER tone by changing a cap though. It's more like how the tone control cuts and adds frecuencies as you dial I think.

Anyway I'm no expert but if you describe what you think is the problem now and what you hope to achieve in some details then I'm sure someone here will tell you want you need to hear.

[PTChristopher]

I will probably regret this but:

[Funkwire]>>> 500k pots would help cut some of that treble.

How on earth can this possibly be the case? I guess if you dipped the 500K pots in fudge and stuck them in your ears you might notice less treble. But how do you propose that these pots (placed where exactly) in the guitar would reduce treble?

In my opinion, the linked page from "The Tubestore" is really rubbish, yet people seem to absolutely love this sort of stuff. Incredible.

I think my problem in understanding this is that many folks just love senseless tone quackery. Maybe it makes one feel better. I don't know. Truly incredible.

Best of luck to the OP.

[krusty]

In my opinion, the linked page from "The Tubestore" is really rubbish, yet people seem to absolutely love this sort of stuff. Incredible.

I think my problem in understanding this is that many folks just love senseless tone quackery. Maybe it makes one feel better. I don't know. Truly incredible.

I'm a huge skeptic when it comes to things like this, but I thought I'd add a little gas to the fire with the link.

[Franz 1997]

I find that turning the treble down on the amp can help to, er, reduce the treble..
any kind of functioning cap seems to work there

[jason30]

Thanks for all the information you've given me concerning caps and tone. I learned alot from all of you!

[mambosun]

I find that turning the treble down on the amp can help to, er, reduce the treble..
any kind of functioning cap seems to work there

While I don't necessarily suscribe to the "magic cap solution" to obtain the right tone, I doubt about the treble knob roll off suggestion; in fact usually, the tone change expected is mostly located in the mid (both high and low mid), which makes the quest a little bit more complex...
Rolling off the treble knob will deaden the tone, not making it smoother or darker; sometimes rolling off the volume is more effective.
I guess a good EQ pedal will help even more.

[jorgemg1984]

I agree that messing with the amp's eq (not only the treble but also bass and mids) or getting a good eq pedal is the best solution for the problem mentioned - and there's a good chance the problem is more in the mids. As mambosun said the tone control can make the sound "dead" (which can be good) but will probably not solve a piercing high end problem.

I don't have that much experience in the subject and I believe you cannot hear the difference between caps with different materials but same value but I did hear a difference when I upgraded the cheap circuit on my Cort with good caps, pots and wire - so I guess there's a difference between good and bad ones at least...

When I used George L cabes I found they had a lot of high end emphasis - switching to Sommer cables helped me in that department (but then again some people don't hear any difference between cables)

[Nuff Said]

Lower value Pots "200K" will cut treble due to the inductance level of the whole circuit. In general, the greater the inductance, the more bass response.

Installing a higher value Capacitor will cut the higher treble frequencies, but with a loss in output level.

Why not just turn the Tone pot down, like most players have for years.

Nuff

[SamBooka]

Lower value Pots "200K" will cut treble due to the inductance level of the whole circuit. In general, the greater the inductance, the more bass response.

Installing a higher value Capacitor will cut the higher treble frequencies, but with a loss in output level.

Why not just turn the Tone pot down, like most players have for years.

Nuff

I wrote and deleted my post 3 times on this.. I think you said it best (although I DO choose the right pot for me but changing pots on a 335 is a PITA)

[PTChristopher]

[Nuffsaid] >>> Installing a higher value Capacitor will cut the higher treble frequencies, but with a loss in output level.

Nuff,

I know what you mean, but another way to prosaically describe what happens is that a higher value cap deepens the treble cut in two ways. You get a somewhat greater cut in the highs, and the cut extends farther down into the mids. For many pickups you hear very little change in the level of the highs with a larger cap, but you notice more of a cut to the upper-mids and mids. So yeah, a sort of output level loss via an treble cut that now extends much farther into the midrange of the guitar.

[PTChristoper]>>> How on earth can this possibly be the case? [500K pots reducing treble]

OK, that was an intemperate remark in response to a web-forum shot from the hip.

So how about:

[Funkwire]>>> 500k pots would help cut some of that treble.

In my opinion this is remarkably unlikely in light of both the principles of RLC circuits, and my experience with guitar pots.

A 335 typically will have 500K tone pots and 300K volume pots (making many a web-silly pot value declaration about 500K vs. 250K pots a little funny.)

Changing the volume pots to a higher value will maker the taper as awkward as it is on many other guitars and VERY slightly increase the treble.

Changing the tone pots from 500K to 500K will leave you with a used set of original 550K pots that I'm sure can be sold as "Gibson original pots known for their musicality".

That Fender "ic" cap text is still a prize-winner for silly.

[Sambooka] >>> I wrote and deleted my post 3 times on this.

Man, I can understand this. It is hard to know what to say to some of the stuff that is posted when it is about some rather simple objective stuff, yet goes sideways at best.

Chris

[SamBooka]

Too much crap on the 'net.. sometimes best to keep my mouth shut.
Anyone with 15$ and a soldering iron can figure it out themselves

[PTChristopher]

Ooooooowww. I just burned my finger on my $15 soldering iron. Oil and paper caps would have reduced the finger pain. I read that somewhere. "More Musicality in the finger pain", I think.

[nado64]

...This 2007 model lacks the tonal characteristics that were present in older model Gibsons(in my opinion)....

Is it a classic 57 pickup ?

[jazzbow]

'I read somewhere....'

N.O.S capacitors Russian origin, expensive......

Here's a list.

K15-4 Ceramic HV "doorknobs"
K15-5 Ceramic HV Disc

K31 Silver Mica "kidney bean" style cap

K40P-2B Paper in Oil, aluminium foil, 5% tol.
K40U-9V Paper In Oil , aluminium foil, Silver body, 10% tol. (also called K40Y-9)

K41-1A PIO, High Voltage "Pulse" caps

K42U-2 metalized paper PIO, green painted body (K75 are better)

K50 Aluminum Electrolytic

K70 Polystyrol

K71-7V Polystyrol "High Tolerance" 1% or 2% tol.

K72P-6 Teflon Dielectric 5% tol. (see example below)

K73-14 PETP High Voltage
K73-15 PETP / Dry Mylar
K73-16 PETP / Dry mylar
K73-17 PETP
K73P-4 "tub " style AC capacitors (may be paper or mylar, still TBD).

K74 PETP HV caps

K75-10 PIO, Green body (these are the prime quality PIO)
K75-15 PIO, High Voltage "tub"
K75-17 PIO High Voltage "tub"
K75-24 PIO Green body tubular (see example below)
K75-28 PIO High Voltage "tub"

K76 Laquer film

K77 PolyCarbonate film

K78 PolyPropylen film

BMT-2 Paper In Oil

FGT High Voltage Teflon Dielectric, Ceramic body (almost beer can size)

KBG, OKBG PIO (no, this isn't the KGB, they're a different entity altogether)

KBI HV "doorknob" RF / Transmitting cap

KSO Silver-Mica "precision" caps

SGM3-A, SGM3-B Silver-Mica "precision" caps (in oil?)

MBG, OMBG-2, MGBO-1, -2, MBGP-2, -3 Metallized Paper-Aluminum "tub" AC caps

MBGCh Metallized Paper pulse capacitors.

Then there is American caps........

AAAaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! !!!!!!!!!!

[jonm]

Anybody try the Bill Lawrence q-filter on their tone pot? It was used on the Gibson Howard Roberts. The q-filter is available directly from Bill Lawrence for about $25. I think it's great...

[PTChristopher]

The "q-filter" and the many variants really get into a whole different area vs. the typical "low pass" tone control. Many variables.

I used to put my own version of this sort of filter into solid bodies. It was in some ways more effective than a coil splitter when taming the overly fat sound that was popular in the first wave of absurdly overwound HBs.

I still have a passive notch filter in a very tiny box that plugs into the guitar jack. It lets you tame the sometimes intense midrange of an archtop that's running directly into a PA. Sort of a passive, half-assed DI box with a sort of pseudo impedance matching. Works better than it should.

Anyway if someone wants to experiment, figure anything from 1.0 to 4.5 henries for the coil.

In my opinion.

Chris

[Nuff Said]

My fav is to wire the pup straight to the Jack, and then get yourself a decent EQ box.

Nuff