Minimum String Height?

[Section Player]

There are so many good threads here on strings, fret issues, bridge and saddle setups, nuts, etc.

I want to ask a question which has either been answered somewhere before, or has been laughed out of town: is there a rough rule of thumb on what the minimum string height above the top of a fret to the bottom of the string should be..... like at the 12th fret, I assume?

Is this dimension typically measured with nothing fretted...that is, with the string "open"? Would the minimum typically be about the same for the high e and low E? Assume new frets and assume they're "typical" if possible. Assume the guitar is otherwise set up properly.

Yes, I know it has to do with playing style, string gauge, round wound vs. flatwound, and lots of important other variables. I'm just wondering if there's a sort of rule of thumb on this.

In other words, if you were a guitar tech/luthier, and some of you are, and a guy walks in and hands you his guitar and says something like "nothing's buzzing, but I think my strings are too low", or "how low are my strings", etc., and you take a quick measurement, where do you measure, do you fret the strings anywhere on the neck while measuring, and is there some point at which you start to think they're just too low? Or put another way, from your experience, is there a point at which you start to worry about problems possibly arising?

Just a ballpark idea?

[PTChristopher]

>>> In other words, if you were a guitar tech/luthier,[...] and a guy walks in [...] and says something like "nothing's buzzing, but I think my strings are too low", [...] is there some point at which you start to think they're just too low?

Depends. Do you have a pic of the guy's sister? This can affect things.

[Section Player]

Ok, I deserved that. Assume she's a beauty!

Now what's the real answer?

[PTChristopher]

OK, more like:

>>> string height above the top of a fret to the bottom of the string

This is most commonly called "action" and is most commonly measured at the 12th fret.

It is common to have the low E higher or equal to the high E.

In inches:

3/64 is quite low. Pretty much the practical bottom. Lower than that is only practical for very careful players, or a sound that does not matter much.

3/16 is really high nowadays. There are setups in use with higher action, but they are very unusual. Higher action was more common in the un-amplified era.

"Typical" is from 1/16 to 1/8 on the high E and about 1/64 higher in the low E.

AND

This is all very much affected by nut height and relief. They both need to be set before it is practical to set the final action height.

I hope others will offer alternate opinions.

Chris

[jazzbow]

Ah.... Imperial measurements... I remember them well, sort of....

We here in UK Land went all metric back in '72 and that really screwed with Jazzbows addled brain (too much bourbon didn't help either..).

In Millimeters (mm) low would be 1mm for top E and 1.75mm for bottom E, any lower and you can choke/buzz fretted and bended notes with light gauge strings however fat flatwound 13's could get lower with a player with a soft touch.

I myself have issues with my fretting hand (left) and have numbness in my little finger and tendon fatigue so all my guitars have a low low action (including flat top acoustic but not selmer style guitar which is for sale).

Of course a low action must coincide with fret leveling and nut adjustment for buzz free fun!

[Section Player]

Jazzbow.....not to worry.....we Colonials can deal with metric! Thanks! It's those shillings and pence that give us fits..........

[PTChristopher]

Ah, I think this came up in an earlier "metric" thread. So how about:

>>> 1.5mm at the 12th is pretty low.

>>> 1.2mm is really low.

>>> 3.0 mm is getting up there.

>>> 4.5 mm is what is called "high" action these days even though it was low to moderate in the un-amplified acoustic archtop days.


I do not know what any of that equals in farthings, or guineas.

In my late teens I played using a sixpence that was in a pile of foreign coins we had. Just the right size.

[richard vandyne]

while we are on the subject- i have a constant problem with the d string. at around the venenth to tenth frets-i cant get a good sound-it is more like a thunk and no reverberation. then when i get one or two frets higher all is ok. Any takers????????????

[PTChristopher]

>>> at around the venenth to tenth frets

Yeah, the venenth can be tough.

This is quite possibly a non-fret issue.

It is weird how subjects come up here on several threads all at once when they otherwise go for years with no mention in many places.

What guitar and strings?

It is very possible that you are playing around a resonant peak. ALL guitars have them. Many are nearly impossible to notice. Many are severe (steep curve to the deep resonant peak). Many are shallow.

It is a longish subject all by itself.

Anyway, what guitar and strings?

Chris

[jazzbow]

Jazzbow.....not to worry.....we Colonials can deal with metric! Thanks! It's those shillings and pence that give us fits..........

It's weird that when I need big pieces of wood/metal it's all feet and inches but small increments are always metric! Boy, those bleedin' politicians really did a number on me!

Yeah, three penny pieces, 120 pennies to the pound, shillings are called 'bob,' farthings, crowns and half crowns!

As for alcohol there are yards, pints, half pints, noggins, gills, measures, snifters, singles, doubles, drams......

[PTChristopher]

>>> As for alcohol there are yards, pints, half pints,

Ya know, in school we all had to read Eric Blair's novel "1984".

By the time we had to read it (early '70's I guess), 1984 itself was fast approaching and we knew this was possibly a bit off the mark as an accurate prediction of the future. But political education was apparently very important in the mid-cold-war. (So shortly after the Tet Offensive we are reading "1984" - kind of funny in retrospect.)

But in the book someone is complaining about beer being no longer available in pints. But only liters and half-liters. The idea was that the metric system represented an evil future totalitarian way of measuring things.

So I ask the english teacher what sort of idiot would write this considering that a reasonably drunk person would be hard pressed to tell a half-liter from a pint?

I was told that I was ruining the mood or something to that effect.

I am in the USA, but lived in Europe long enough to get used to metric for everything. But here if you mention metric for many things you are treated as a communist spy or something.

Chris

[richard vandyne]

Hey P T- you have trouble with the veventh too ha ha- I need to do a better editing job. anyway- I am playing an Epiphone(performer st) acoustic elec. Last week i put on some flatwounds(d adario) 12s. I was just going to try them and I find I really like them.Kind of dark but still clear and no string scraping noise. I had a real problem with the elixers-with the thudding- the guitar is only 6 months old and I like it a lot except in some areas I cant get much sound ,it just seems dead. any ideas.

[PTChristopher]

>>> you have trouble with the veventh too[?]

Yep. The purpteenth gives me fits as well

>>> in some areas I cant get much sound ,it just seems dead. any ideas.

Yes. Now I have not played the guitar, so there could be a dead sparrow stuck on the FB around the furnthiemth (pronounced FURN-thie-emth) fret or something else, but it sounds like:

A pretty significant resonant peak.

Your guitar resonates (profound, huh?). It vibrates when excited by the energy from the strings.

Such a structure will have one or more peaks where it resonates more strongly than at other frequencies - sometimes MUCH more strongly.

This can manifest itself as a number of things. Some examples:

- A very short powerful, plunky note.
- A quick primary note decay and a lingering octave harmonic.
- A note with otherwise bizarre harmonic emphasis.

Sometimes you hear the "problem" at a note other than the actual resonant peak.

Very often you will hear a problem on one string, but on another (playing the same note) you will not. This makes sense for [at least] two reasons, but this is getting techno-long already. AND, I am really over-simplifying. Wait for the book.

The more "acoustic" your guitar is, the more likely the depth and focus of the resonant peak(s).

BUT

On many acoustic guitars, the main peak is at a high enough frequency that it is hard to notice it when strumming cowboy chords.

But start playing lead lines and you can notice that the variety of attack, sustain, and harmonic content can vary very widely.

What can you do?

On archtops, a different bridge mass can move the peak(s). A heavier bridge often reduces the degree of difference from one note to the next. But sometimes the opposite happens, so you have to test.

A string gauge change can also often help. Lighter strings will often help.

A soundpost makes a difference in many cases.

On flatops, the options are more limited. A different string gauge can help. A set of heavy bridge pins are also worth a try. Brass pins are readily available. Again, this can help, do almost nothing, or even make it worse. I have experienced all three. It is worth a try in my opinion.

I am being all vague here for a reason. While this is all deterministic, it is very hard to predict the effect of a given change in a given guitar.

At high amplified volume, you can get a completely new set of resonant peaks than are also affected by the room acoustics. Sometimes this can be alarming with a completely dead note right next to a note that howls with feedback.

Chris

[jazzbow]

>>> you have trouble with the veventh too[?]

Yep. The purpteenth gives me fits as well, Chris

How many litres of beer have you guys had??

Just a quick one, you go to the butcher or grocer and you can ask for stuff off the shelf in pounds and ounces but if they sell stuff pre-packed or if it's ticketed it has to be in metric?!? Aarrgghhh!

Pathetic

[PTChristopher]

>>> How many litres of beer have you guys had??

Today, or on aggregate?

None, and probably too many.

>>> you can ask for stuff off the shelf in pounds and ounces but [...] if it's ticketed it has to be in metric?!?

Weird, but I suppose understandable with the half-in half-out situation with the UK and the European Community.

My wife and I randomly switch between metric and Imperial, and sometimes between Flemish and English, at the same time. It works for us, more or less, but sounds bizarre to others.

In Canada they seem to have a weird mix of units as well. Kilometers for distance, liters for gasoline (funny to see signs for one dollar and change on a gas pump), but I think they go Imperial for either body weight or height. I forget exactly, but I recall the mixed system.

[richard vandyne]

Mr. Chris- i think you are on the right track. Since i purchased the guitar I have not had it set up as the salespeople told me it was checked and found not wanting. Your description of possible problems leaves me to consider having a luthier look at it and get a realistic opinion. From the options you presented it seems to me that in the long run it may be cheaper!!!?????? I can either mess with it myself or bite the bullet and get it taken care of immediately. What say you??

[amhabz]

most of the top guitar manufacturers will give you their opinion of optimum heights for the strings. you actually will need a capo to do this. just follow the directions that they give. first though you need a "yardstick" to check the bow in the neck. actually an 18 inch or so good straight edge. back to my pint now.

[PTChristopher]

>>> Your description of possible problems leaves me to consider having a luthier look at it and get a realistic opinion.

Well yes, an in-hand opinion is a really good idea.

>>> Your description of possible problems

I would summarize my description as significantly involving the nature of the beast in a guitar with a strong acoustic character.

If I understand your description of your guitar and the 'dead zone', much of it is the normal (but often un-noticed or ignored) artifacts of resonant peaks. At some frequencies the guitar resonates strongly and dissipates energy very quickly, or very inefficiently.

>>> get it taken care of

It's not like there is an adjustment screw for resonant peaks (if I am on the right track here). You can often help mitigate some of the effects, or move them around to less troublesome areas.

So, yes. I'd get it looked at. Your luthier may find things that are more directly addressable. He may also be in the mood to try some of the sorts of things I mentioned earlier. He may not deal with this sort of thing at all. "It is what it is." is one view of resonance in an acoustic guitar.

I am trying to think of a good example of acoustic solo lines up the FB that are not faux-flamenco, or Bonamassa-ed to death, but all that comes to mind is this one (linked below).

Acoustic guitars very often have a real mix of resonant response up the FB. This is not great audio, but I think you can hear the mix of smooth sustained notes, weird plinky notes, buzzy harmonic disaster notes, etc..

Anyway, please let us know what an in-hand luthier suggests.

(I like how in the vid below the bass player looks like he is remaining serene, yet also sure he is getting a parking ticket right at this moment.)

Chris

[Flint]

My personal rule of thumb is simple. A 1mm pick inserted between the 12th fret and the high E string should not fall out when released. And of course, no strings should buzz or "fret out" when bent, anywhere on the neck.

[kris]

Nut set up and hight strings over first fret.This is very important.

[richard vandyne]

hey Kris- took your advise and checked the first fret and found that i cant get a cheap plastic pic between the first fret and string without raising the string- at the 12th fret it is about 1/8 of an inch clearence. Sometimes when i don,t have my finger exactly on the fret i will get the buzzzzzzzes.These measurements were made on the 6th string.

[PTChristopher]

Richard,

I do not in any way want to get into criticism of other opinions here, but this is a big one:

Nut height is not at all accurately measured as clearance above the first fret on open strings.

I understand that you can buy at least one book that measures nut height exactly this way on various "guitars of the stars". It is, nonetheless, a fundamentally mistaken way to look at nut height. It leads to bad decisions in every aspect of a setup. Many players are happy to deal with the downsides of a sub-optimal setup, and that is certainly an available choice.

But nut height is best set relative to the crown peaks of all the frets, and NOT as a clearance above the first fret. Clearance above the first fret will change with both bridge height and neck relief, yet neither has a direct bearing on how high the nut slots should actually be.

Frank Ford has the most clear, accurate, and non-misleading explanation of nut slot height.

I would only add that in my opinion/experience, Frank Ford's process gets you to about as high as the slot should be. I sneak my own down slightly lower, but so slightly that it is hard to feel - it only offers slightly better low position intonation.

Check this out:

Nut Action

[kris]

hey Kris- took your advise and checked the first fret and found that i cant get a cheap plastic pic between the first fret and string without raising the string- at the 12th fret it is about 1/8 of an inch clearence. Sometimes when i don,t have my finger exactly on the fret i will get the buzzzzzzzes.These measurements were made on the 6th string.

I've put a new nut on my Tele yesterday.I do not want to change nut hight. It 's looks like 1,5 mm over first fret/E bass string/.Guitar is in tune and no buzzzzes....but Tele is different.Looks like Tele with hight action.
I recomend for you fret work-polishing.
I have arch-top with low action but with exelent fret work and no buzzzes.

[PTChristopher]

Hey Kris,

Your Tele sounds great in the sample.

Please understand that I do not in any way criticize your setup choices done by you on your own guitar. It works for you, and that's great.

Chris

[PTChristopher]

Gents,

I'm going to step way from this thread.

I do not want to get into any situations where I criticize alternate points of view here. It is just outside my motivation for being here.

O&O

Chris