Archtop neck angle?

**tele09** · 08-02-2012, 11:24 AM

Hello everybody(new here),

I'm in the process of neck reset on a Gretsch synchromatic 1954 guitar and I have to only glue the neck back in, but before that I would like to hear your opinions on the proper neck angle...

The bridge that will be used can be adjusted from minimum height of 22mm to maximum height of 30mm.
Currently when I lay a straightedge on the fretboard the straightedge stays at 24,5mm above the point of the bridge on the top of the guitar.
Does this sound like a good height?
The only problem that I see is that is the neck will be pulled too much by the strings(It doesn't have truss rod).

Thanks!

**tele09** · 08-02-2012, 12:29 PM

I see your point. I was asking about the the neck angle in relation to the bridge height so basically I was asking if I would have enough space to move the bridge up or down after it is stringed.

But in general, I must admit that I haven't considered the actual angle(which obviously effects the action of especially the higher frets). Therefore I would also like to ask what would be the recommended neck angle without the strings and what would be a good method of measuring this?

I have read all the info on neck resets that I could find and I definately want to get it right so I won't have to take off and reglue again.

thanks

**tele09** · 08-02-2012, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

I understand. But I am surprised by your suggestion that the neck bow would be somehow compensated by neck angle.
s

I only stated that the neck pulled by the strings would alter the bridge height(possibly even requiring lowering of the bridge). In the first message I was asking only about the appropriate bridge height for neck reset.

Do you mean that the angle of the neck doesn't matter when no strings are installed?
I was thinking it would effect the action in same manner as shimming a stratocaster bolt on neck. Like shimming in the body end of the neck pocket would cause slightly higher action on the higher frets. Doesn't this matter on archtops?

But now that you mentioned it, can someone tell me what would be the ideal neck angle and what would be a good way of measuring.

**Spook410** · 08-02-2012, 01:46 PM

Hello Tele09,
You are deep into a very complex topic. I would even be careful about which professional I took a neck reset to. It's a complex job. Example:
000-45 Neck Reset

Doubt there are a lot of 1954 Gretsch's like yours out there. Professional restoration maybe?

**tele09** · 08-02-2012, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by Spook410

Hello Tele09,
You are deep into a very complex topic. I would even be careful about which professional I took a neck reset to. It's a complex job. Example:
000-45 Neck Reset

Doubt there are a lot of 1954 Gretsch's like yours out there. Professional restoration maybe?

I've already read that article, it's a good one.
I definately know it's one of the most difficult common repairs.

**PTChristopher** · 08-02-2012, 03:55 PM

Tele,

I deleted my posts here. I think I am being no help, so better to not clutter up the thread. Best of luck with this. Over and out.

Chris

**fws6** · 08-02-2012, 05:00 PM

As a Gretsch fan.... What model do you have ? I think the only synchro's still produced in '54 were the 300 and 400 (or 6040 / 6036)

... also...a 1954 gretsch with no trussrod ? How can that be ? Should have a truss by then

**tele09** · 08-02-2012, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by fws6

As a Gretsch fan.... What model do you have ? I think the only synchro's still produced in '54 were the 300 and 400 (or 6040 / 6036)

... also...a 1954 gretsch with no trussrod ? How can that be ? Should have a truss by then

I dunno for sure, it's the basic cheaper model. It's a 8*** serial number so maybe it's late 53 or early 54.
It's like this one but diffetent color:
http://www.guitar-museum.com/guitar-...ARCHTOP-GUITAR

So maybe synchro 100?

I think I can do this neck reset myself as I have some guitar building experience. In the worst case if I'll mess it up I'll just steam it and do it again or give it to a professional.

Meanwhile I'm in the process of shimming it. I have shimmed the sides of the dovetail but I still can move the neck with my hand to the direction of the string pull, so there is play. I just wonder is the play in the bottom of the dovetail or in the part of the neck that connects to the top?
Does anyone have any advice on how to perfectly shim the bottom or any other solutions to remove the play?

Thanks!

**Stevebol** · 08-02-2012, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by tele09

I dunno for sure, it's the basic cheaper model. It's a 8*** serial number so maybe it's late 53 or early 54.
It's like this one but diffetent color:
VINTAGE 1954 GRETSCH SYNCHROMATIC m 100 ARCHTOP GUITAR - Guitar museum

So maybe synchro 100?

I think I can do this neck reset myself as I have some guitar building experience. In the worst case if I'll mess it up I'll just steam it and do it again or give it to a professional.

Meanwhile I'm in the process of shimming it. I have shimmed the sides of the dovetail but I still can move the neck with my hand to the direction of the string pull, so there is play. I just wonder is the play in the bottom of the dovetail or in the part of the neck that connects to the top?
Does anyone have any advice on how to perfectly shim the bottom or any other solutions to remove the play?

Thanks!

I've done a couple resets so I'll tell you what I've encountered. If you use hide glue don't make it too thick, heat it slowly and try to get it not too cloudly. Work quickly and if you have any doubts start over. The dimensions you give about the neck angle sound pretty good but since there's little info on this I'm guessing. 7/8- 1 inch is common for this. If in doubt be prepared to sand the bridge bottom. Also, there should be no play at the bottom of the dovetail. When shimming go VERY easy with the sanding. I just finished doing a reset on an old Harmony and I wanted to get a 1" bridge height but had to settle for 7/8". After trying to mess with the angle by sanding I came to my senses and stopped. I glued it on and I'm hoping for the best.

**tele09** · 08-02-2012, 06:48 PM

OK thanks.

How important is the fit of the tip of the dovetail? (the tip like in this pic: http://www.lmii.com/carttwo/headerim...vetailNeck.jpg)

I had to raise the neck a bit from the top of the guitar because during previous repair it was lowered for some reason and this raising caused a gap in the bottom of the bodys dovetail area, so the tip of the dovetail isn't in connection to the body. How important is this fit? As I have no idea how to shim such a big gap(about 3-5mm).

Also tips for making a good shim for the bottom of the dovetail are welcome. If I make the side shims first and then add the bottom shim, would it be fine? Is there also method with carbon paper for the bottom shim? So far I haven't seen any instructions for making proper dovetail bottom shim.
thanks

**jasonc** · 08-02-2012, 08:23 PM

Basically you're shooting for something in the neighborhood of 4-5 degrees with a bridge height of about 1 inch. I'm still not sure what you mean by the "tip" of the dovetail but if you're talking about the bottom or simply the narrow end then yes it absolutely needs to fit tight. All of it should fit tight. In fact a well fit dovetail wouldn't even need glue to stay together.

**tele09** · 08-03-2012, 06:01 AM

Originally Posted by jasonc

Basically you're shooting for something in the neighborhood of 4-5 degrees with a bridge height of about 1 inch. I'm still not sure what you mean by the "tip" of the dovetail but if you're talking about the bottom or simply the narrow end then yes it absolutely needs to fit tight. All of it should fit tight. In fact a well fit dovetail wouldn't even need glue to stay together.

OK thanks. Do you (or anyone else) have suggestions on how I should measure the angle of the neck without the strings?
Yes by the tip I meant the narrow end. Any suggestions on how to make a shim for the tip(and bottom)?

**oldane** · 08-03-2012, 06:30 AM

Originally Posted by fws6

... also...a 1954 gretsch with no trussrod ? How can that be ? Should have a truss by then

Some Gretsches didn't have adjustable truss rods. I have a 1961 New Yorker which doesn't have one. I figure it must have some fixed reinforcement rod inside the neck since it holds up to even heavy strings without bow. Of course, my Gretsch is the lowest of low end models, and it may be different with the more expensive Syncromatic models.

**tele09** · 08-03-2012, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by oldane

Some Gretsches didn't have adjustable truss rods. I have a 1961 New Yorker which doesn't have one. I figure it must have some fixed reinforcement rod inside the neck since it holds up to even heavy strings without bow. Of course, my Gretsch is the lowest of low end models, and it may be different with the more expensive Syncromatic models.

I can imagine it's steel reinforced neck as I remember reading something like that on a gretsch catalog

**jasonc** · 08-03-2012, 09:28 AM

You can check the angle with one of these. Shop General Tools & Instruments 180° Ground Stainless Steel Protractor at Lowes.com=

A picture of your problem would be helpful. Do you mean that the dovetail doesn't have enough material to bottom out in the mortise? If I understand you right, then you're going to have to remove material from the bottom of the DT and make sure it's all squared and glue in a new piece of wood to it then recut the dovetail.

**tele09** · 08-03-2012, 11:28 AM

There's so much of shimming to do that I decided to take it to a guitar luthier and hopefully he will shim it properly.

**Stevebol** · 08-03-2012, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by tele09

OK thanks.

How important is the fit of the tip of the dovetail? (the tip like in this pic: http://www.lmii.com/carttwo/headerim...vetailNeck.jpg)

I had to raise the neck a bit from the top of the guitar because during previous repair it was lowered for some reason and this raising caused a gap in the bottom of the bodys dovetail area, so the tip of the dovetail isn't in connection to the body. How important is this fit? As I have no idea how to shim such a big gap(about 3-5mm).

Also tips for making a good shim for the bottom of the dovetail are welcome. If I make the side shims first and then add the bottom shim, would it be fine? Is there also method with carbon paper for the bottom shim? So far I haven't seen any instructions for making proper dovetail bottom shim.
thanks

That's a good question about the fit at the bottom of the dovetail. I'm pretty shure there should be no play before glueing but after seeing how far off the fit was on my recent reset I wonder if this means anything. The bottom of my dovetail wasn't even close to butting against the cavity on the guitar. I wasn't sure what to do so I jammed a lot of glue in there. This probably didn't hurt but it didn't help either. In hinedsight I would guess that the critical parts are the fit at the sides of the dovetail(not where it curves), especially towards the bottom and the fit at the top of the guitar where it meets the underside of the neck.

P.S. I see that you're going to have it done by a luthier. I'd be curious to know what he say's about the fit at the bottom of the dovetail.

**Stevebol** · 08-03-2012, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by jasonc

Basically you're shooting for something in the neighborhood of 4-5 degrees with a bridge height of about 1 inch. I'm still not sure what you mean by the "tip" of the dovetail but if you're talking about the bottom or simply the narrow end then yes it absolutely needs to fit tight. All of it should fit tight. In fact a well fit dovetail wouldn't even need glue to stay together.

That could very well be true. They say the neck should stay on without glue even when strung up and a good fit where the dovetail curves would probably matter. I added a lot of wood at the dovetail curve on my first reset to get a good fit. On my last one I didn't add any because it was so far off from touching.

**PTChristopher** · 08-03-2012, 05:34 PM

[Stevebol]>>> That's a good question about the fit at the bottom of the dovetail.

Hi Steve.

As you can imagine, if you simply butt-glued two pieces of wood together end-to-end the joint would have extremely little strength.

The fit of the neck end-grain into the bottom of the dovetail would be the same as such a butt-joint, and provide no added practical strength to the overall neck joint.

The dovetail works via the very fine fit of the sides of the joint, and the wedging action of the joint as the flat cut-out on the neck, at the top of the joint, comes into contact with the rim of the guitar at the same time as the dovetail wedges into place.

Shims on the sides of the dovetail are extremely strong so long as they fit well. A great fitting shim will be far stronger than a poorly fit dovetail with no shim.

There should only be two shims - on the faces of the dovetail itself.

There is no point whatsoever to a shim to fill the gap at the bottom. In fact it can be a real problem in the future.

This thread has mentioned both shims and glue to fill the gap at the bottom.

Imagine the mean things said about your mother and "The Fleet" when some luthier tries to steam the joint to remove the neck only to find that the chamber he is counting on to be there has been filled?

It is really a dis-service to the instrument, and anyone ever working on it, to fill this gap.

All in my opinion.

As fir the earlier "neck angle" thing,...

The neck angle is a consequence of:

- The arch used on the top.
- The desired bridge height.
- The stacked height of the neck extension and FB above the top of the guitar at the rim.

On an existing guitar, you do not aim for a particular neck angle. You work with the three items listed above, note that you might actually slightly change the third one when re-cutting the dovetail for the reset, then observe the consequent neck angle if it amuses you to do so.

Chris

**jasonc** · 08-03-2012, 05:52 PM

I guess what I should have said is the sides are the most critical part but the over all fit is important and filling any joint with glue is just a bad idea. If the bottom is fit you have that much more area working in your favor. A local violin builder (who builds some world class instruments) fits his necks so that everything is tight including the endgrain of the heel against the neck block. I certainly wouldn't want to pull one of his necks out. Taking it to someone is probably a wise decision.

**jasonc** · 08-03-2012, 06:02 PM

Hey Chris, I'm not saying to remove part of the DT and then stick it back in there. I said that you would be rebuilding the dovetail. The squaring up is so that you have good glue surfaces as this new part of the DT is not mechanically joined and THEN recut the dovetail. I have rebuilt several cello tenons the same way and it is a legit repair.

**PTChristopher** · 08-03-2012, 06:16 PM

Jason,

I'll go back and clean up my post, which is excessive in places.

I understand what you mean about re-building the dovetail, I had misunderstood this the first time through.

But gents, please consider that a luthier will very reasonably be expecting a gap at the bottom of the dovetail, accessible through the first fret slot past the neck/body joint. Having no gap there is, in my opinion, not heroic. It is a pain in the patootie (at best) if the neck ever needs to be removed.

Chris

**jasonc** · 08-03-2012, 06:32 PM

I'm not saying to make the dovetail meet the neck block. I leave about a 1/16" between the two. I'm talking about the bottom as in the area where the heel cap will live. The reference to the violin builder is simply to point out that he is very particular about the joinery and so too should anyone attempting to do a neck reset.

**PTChristopher** · 08-03-2012, 08:13 PM

Hi Jason,

Yes, very clear.

I have a question:

If you restore a dovetail with new wood, do you glue both the 'restoration wood' and the actual neck joint with hide glue, or do you use hide glue only for the eventual joint?

I am supposing that with some care it could be done so that a later neck removal would steam the hide glue joint free but not detach or weaken your dovetail restoration?

Chris

**jasonc** · 08-03-2012, 09:18 PM

Well it depends....on cellos it's all hide glue. but the neck joint on a cello is slightly less problematic since it's just a mortise and tenon and not dovetailed. So getting a broken tenon out isn't as big a problem because once the the neck is out you work from the sides with a pallet knife and get the stubborn part out that way. Guitars are, as you know, a much bigger PITA. I wouldn't hesitate to use hide glue for all of it though. However, I usually use a PVA on the rebuilt parts and hide for the actual joint on repairs...I go with Titebond on new work. I don't know why because I generally like working with hide glue. I've never had one come back but even if the neck didn't come out in one piece I would just steam out what's left in the mortise and rebuild what needs rebuilding. How have you dealt with necks that didn't come out in one piece?

Fair enough on the neck angle business. The 4 to 5 degrees seems relatively standard though. To be honest I can't remember ever changing the geometry of an archtop during a reset. All the ones I've ever done on archtops have been broken heels that just needed to be put back together. On my guitars I go with 5 degrees and bring the neck down until I have the 1" bridge height. So the height of the fingerboard extension is what changes not my angle or bridge height. So if I have a taller arch the fingerboard extension will be slightly taller or vice versa...lower arch=slightly lower fingerboard extension. But, as you rightly pointed out, there is a difference between new work and repair.