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To those who have experience with both of these amps, in regards to playing jazz on then, how do you feel they compare? What are their pros and cons?
Edit: add the Deluxe reverb as well.
Last edited by Abaddon2005; 08-15-2012 at 07:30 AM.
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08-15-2012 07:25 AM
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How's your back?
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As far as tone concerned, the Twin has more headroom and the Super has more character due to its tube rectifier. Mind you, they are very similar and the differences between them are cork sniffing comparisons.
The weight issue is more of a concern to me than the tone. Many years ago, PA systems were not as sophisticated as they are today and the players had to produce all of their volume on stage. This is where the Twin shone. Today, if you are in a situation where you would need the stage volume of a Twin, you'd just plug into the house system.
The problem with both amps if that they are big and heavy. As a jazz guy, I wouldn't want to lug these beasts around to the small venues where I'm called to perform. Imagine loading a Twin into your car and dragging it on stage night after night. It sounds like torture. This is the reason why small solid state amps have become so popular in the jazz community in places like New York. It would be extremely difficult to navigate the city via subway carrying a Twin, although you probably wouldn't have to worry about anybody stealing it.
Many of the heavy hitters that we see playing Twins on stage have them provided by the promoters as part of their backline, as they are commonly found and relatively consistent as far as tube amps go.
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+1 on the above
it all depends on what gigs you're doing, and how loud you play . i find with a jazz box and heavy strings most low wattage tube amps distort, which may be alot to do with a single 12 speaker too, or more likely my less than subtle attack. so that rules out the deluxe reverb. twin/super is down to taste, but for headroom, the twin every time. solid state are gettin better and better. for practicality, it wins everytime. some of the looks you get from a sound engineer bringing a twin into a venue are priceless, and to echo the above, they're f@$kin heavy.
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I have a DRRE and good amp, have had a 70's Super Reverb and miss it, but Super's you have issues with volume because the 4x10" cut thru anything. I did use the Super for big band and fusion gig's. I had a BF Princeton Reverb I regret ever getting rid of using it for recording and pit band work.
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The trouble with the Super is that it is huge. That's why if I had to do it over again, I'd get the Vibrolux since it's easier to get around.
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Twins and Supers are great. I've played through a bunch of them. Playing jazz? Definitely a Twin Reverb and never on a Super Reverb for me - I find them incredibly bright amps, very difficult to dial in a fat jazz sound. Great for everything else, just not for jazz.
I much prefer the jazz sound I can get from a Twin, or from an old 40 watt 2x12 Pro Reverb - essentially a Twin with half the power. These went through a few changes over the years (tube rectifier to ss rectifier, etc.), but are great jazz amps IMO.
Deluxe Reverb? Fantastic amp, but too underpowered for larger, louder combo jazz gigs with drums, brass, keys, IMO, at least with a hollow archtop, heavy flats and a heavy attack (my typical setup).
YMMV.Last edited by Hammertone; 08-15-2012 at 11:36 PM.
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I use a 20 watt KochStudiotone tube amp with a hollowbody Eastman guitar, heavey (13.) strings and light to medium attack. In my experience if you need more than 20 watts mic the amp and go through a PA.
A few things can easily - and pretty cheep, - provide more power/clean headroom to all tube amps.
1: Change the preamptube in the first position to a type that provides more headroom.
2: Change the stock speaker to one with higher sensitivity, - this could be an Eminence Cannabis Rex, which sounds great for jazz. An added sensitivity of 3 dB equals almost 100% more volume. My stock speaker was rated somewhere between 98-100 dB. The ECR is rated 103 dB.
3: Get an extention speaker cab with 1 or 2*12" speaker(s) which you can bring to the lager gigs if needed.
I´ve done all 3 things and I´m happy, but of course that´s just me.
And if you have an amp with 6v6 tubes you can put in 6L6 tubes instead. This alone will probably bring a 22 watt Fender DLR up to 30 watt.
EDIT: If you play in a bigband things are probably different, - I have no experience in that direction.Last edited by bluefonia; 08-16-2012 at 05:17 AM.
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No experience with the SR, but a TR can deliver a good clean tone suited for jazz under all circumstances.
Where a Twin would be too much, you can bring a Deluxe Reverb. If even that would be too much: Princeton Reverb.
So you need 3 new amps: Twin, Deluxe and Princeton.....
Actually, I'm only half kidding, I do have 3 of such amps to cover all situations: a Twin Reverb (80-90 watts, 2x12, 32 kgs), a Blues Deluxe (40 watts, 1x12, 21 kgs) and a Session Rockette (30 watts, 1x12, ss/Mosfet, so it's very small and light: 10 kgs).
I wouldn't mind yet another even smaller amp like a Lunchbox or Phil Jones Cub or so.Last edited by Little Jay; 08-16-2012 at 08:13 AM.
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Super v. Twin? Hernia v. Slipped disc.
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+1 . . . I've got a 1970 Pro Reverb and had a black face upgrade/conversion done to it. I'll never look for another tube amp for jazz tone! I've got it propped up on a Sound Enhancer. It's just perfect!!
Originally Posted by Hammertone
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Could you please elaborate on your experiences with Supers? The only extensive experience I have with Supers with the '68 Super Reverb I've owned for many years. The other Supers I've played have been in noisy situations or in guitar stores. Originally Posted by Hammertone
My '68 is not bright by any means. Next to my old Twin, I'd say that it was a bit darker. Mind you, it may be a symptom of component drift, where component values change over the span of many years, or it could be that my Twin was abnormally bright.
Come think of it, I haven't come across an old Blackface Fender (exempting the Champ) that I couldn't use for jazz. They all seem to have the treble adjustment at just the right spot.
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Yeah, I've played a silverface super in the last year that was one of the best sounding clean amps I've ever played through....not overly bright in the least.
My only beef with twins is that they're really loud, and they don't really sound at their full potential until you're up a little bit...
So I guess it's my way of saying, I don't get big enough gigs for a twin
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I love the Blackface Twin Reverb. Supers are a little lighter but not that much and have a slightly different character. Equally difficult to transport especially for us 50-60+ guys. I love the 2x12 sound from the twin and the subtly darker voice. It just sounds bigger in tone. I am solving the weight/size problem by having a 60 watt head based on a Blackface Twin Reverb circuit built and mating it with a 1x12 semi-closed cabinet. Should arrive here in a couple of weeks. I will post a review. it has 6550 tubes instead of 6L6, so might be a bit overpowered, if so i'll swap out for 6L6 to lower the wattage to 40.
you can also have a Twin cut down to a head. they are often available on ebay or the gear page.
Comins has something similar made by Alessandro and Sound Island Music in Seattle (Micheal Biller is a great guy, excellent player and fine amp builder in his own right) also makes something similar but is a combo.
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I agree Fender has the treble knob on the right spot and usually putting it next to zero it kills the sparkle. But Fender's brightness sometimes is a little more in the upper mids area - 800hz 1k area - that's where the "bell" sound is to my ears. Apart from some Blackface amps most Fender have that bell quality, specially the RI ones. Originally Posted by Klatu
Last edited by jorgemg1984; 08-16-2012 at 10:23 AM.
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The head is a good idea. If you can go with a convertible cab - that way you can alternate between closed and semi-open. In my experience closed backs work great for jazz. Originally Posted by TSP
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I have a Silverface Bassman that was modded to Blackface specs for under $400. I used to own a Super Reverb, and once I put speakers that were'nt terrible, it was way too heavy and expensive. There's no reverb on the Bassman, but the sound is just as good as the Super, and I can use different speakers with it.
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I use blackface Twins 95% of the time becuase I usually play in bands w/Hammond B-3's and drums and need to cut through.
w/out going through a PA it's the only Fender that will make it w/out breaking up.
But a blackface Vibrolux has the best tone to my ears. I use them in lower volume situations.
Weight isn't too much of an issue, just get a good cart to transport your boat anchor...
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I've heard some Bassman amps that fart out in the bass. Is this something you've experienced? If it is essentially the same circuit as the Super without the reverb, then I would think it to be a perfect tube amp for jazz. I may actually go down that route myself since I can get a hold of silverface units for reasonable prices. Originally Posted by Uncle Meat
By the way, what year was your Super and why did you think the speakers were terrible? The speakers in my '68 are original, and they sound just great for the music I play.
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Finally someone agrees with me, most Fenders are not enough on unmiced gigs! But actually I thought the Vibrolux would do it... you tried it right? Originally Posted by wintermoon
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Originally Posted by wintermoon
Isn't their a Hitchcock film where someone drags an amp up stairs in a dream sequence?
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Thanks for all the replies guys. I figured weight would come up as in issue. But the past few days i've just been wondering what dream rig would be if weight and such wasn't an issue, and naturally Fender amps came up. Out of these three, I've only played a twin from the 70's. One thing that bothered me (and bothers me on Princetons I've played) is the reverb.
To me that spring reverb sound is just terrible for jazz as it seems to slow down the attack/response. I've watched some demos on youtube where it seemed to be confirmed. It is of course easily fixable by simply using a digital reverb instead. I do wonder if they're ideal in how they respond in that I really enjoy the tightness and quick response of solid state amps.
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"But actually I thought the Vibrolux would do it... you tried it right?"
yes, a VR will be ok in a small venue w/ say, an upright bassist and light hitting drummer, but when the band starts cooking and things get louder you'll find yourself wishing you had the extra headroom.
and as I said, going up against a B-3? forget it, you'll need a Twin for sure if not micing
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If you're trying reverb stomp boxes, try out delay, too. Less mushy than reverb. Originally Posted by Abaddon2005
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I'm no amp tech, but I've heard the preamps for different Blackface amps are essentially the same. The Super I had was a reissue, and those Jensens were way too quiet and harsh for me to take them seriously.
Originally Posted by Klatu
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