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So you have spent many hundreds of hours working on an arched top guitar
The moment of truth, and it is time to string it up.
You play scales all over the neck and you notice that one note just goes KLONK
you detuned the string Half a step and the KLONK moves up a fret
Dead spot... It happens but how do YOU deal with it ?
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09-07-2012 07:10 PM
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Looking forward to the responses from those who have addressed this themselves.
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hmm... just guessing here, but if the note moved when you detuned the string, maybe the STRING has a dead spot? Is this even possible in a string? Change the string and re-test. Cheap & quick experiment.
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Is it a klonk of a string being to low and hitting a fret?
If it was a neck issue I'd expect a klonk on more than one string
Or maybe a fret is not sitting flat. Or it could be a nut and bridge issue.
Maybe the nut is cut wrong ? Got some more info?
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I'm no luthier, but a cheap and easy thing to try first would be to change the string and see what happens.
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What type of bridge ? On re reading your reply it could be a high fret, a low bridge or maybe the neck doesnt have the right bend.More info please
Last edited by tedium; 09-07-2012 at 08:02 PM.
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Ok.. I will give you a hint..
I put a capo on the headstock (right across the pretty word Gibson)...
No more klonk..
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Wolf tones?
Originally Posted by SamBooka
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They have been called that but that is actually a violin term and on violins it does sound like odd harmonic over tones.. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
Dead spots.. ask someone who played fender basses in the 60s about certain notes you avoided .. (rumour has it fender went with the big headstock because they showed up on strats as well.. and that was a Leo thing.. you cant blame CBS).
Not a fret issue (detune the string and the dead spot follows the pitch.. not the fret) Not a dead string issue (it can be more pronounced on one string but you do hear it on other strings when you play a note with the same pitch )
(I have a 96 ES165, 99Epiphone Emp Reg and a 64 ES125). They all have a bum note somewhere.
This was not an issue until I changed my tuners for considerably lighter ones. At any rate.. I know what the problem is. I know a few things I can do from a reasonably technical persons point of view.
So my question to people who build on a regular basis have you had to deal with this?
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Nice job there Drew.
In my opinion, pretty much all guitars have dead notes (wolf notes, etc.). These are resonant peaks with the parameters you encounter on a parametric EQ: center frequency, depth, and width.
It can be a killer on a classical guitar, and the fixes can be pretty tricky (shaving braces or adding wood after the guitar is built).
I have never played a flat top that did not have at least one dead spot.
Pretty much anything you can do to change the mass or vibration can help. But if there is a procedural method to finding and solving them, I have never heard of it or stumbled on it.
I have made hybrid copper/ebony bridges to add bridge mass, which usually moves the dead spot, but can also make the new dead spot deeper. I have shaved bridges and bases to try to lighten them, which can make the dead spot shallower.
I have never changed tuners to much heavier or lighter ones to solve this, but after your capo caper, I'll definitely try a tuner mass change sometime.
Another thing I never really thought of 'till you mentioned this is that some dead notes are really dead at each location where you can play the note. Others are only dead at certain locations.
It may be that with a little careful observation this may lead to whether or not the resonant peak can be chased in the neck/headstock or not. Nice thread idea.
Soundposts can also help. The Epi B'way can have a pretty focussed dead note at A-220 and a carefully placed soundpost (love the easy access through the neck PU hole,...) really softens it quite a bit without choking the sound of the guitar.
Chris
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Is it the G string by any chance?
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Somewhat on the A at 12th fret but mostly high E at C (8th fret).
A little surprised no one mentioned pickup height yet but.. hey.. its friday night
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Thanks Chris. Originally Posted by PTChristopher
I have tried adding mass to the bridge but I dont notice an improvement (vs the headstock) but I HAVE noticed a slight shift adding mass to the top of the guitar. The Emp Reg originally had a deadspot (iirc ) around the 12th fret D string. That was when I was running it without any pickup (floater removed and in a box a safe distance away) Putting in a VVCC pickup moved it to Db.
It is unfortunate because the original tuners were Bigass grovers. The kluson replacements are smoother (good) sexier (good also) and seemed to open up the tone of the guitar unplugged (I dont think I notice a difference plugged in. it might be there.. but i dont have the ears to hear it)
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What about the tone capacitors? I read somewhere,...
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SHUUUUUTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!! Originally Posted by PTChristopher
but seriously.. I had posted here before that I loved the new tuners.
My dealextreme digital scale says that a set of Klusons are .2 lbs lighter that the original Gibson branded grovers. (I would have put that in Oz but then is that imperial ounces, american, or fluid.. I never was into buying drugs so my reference for measuments is pints and pitchers..)
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You could always go to Grover Imperials, but you may tend to fall over to your left from the weight.
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I have a set of new "Gibson Deluxe" tuners as used on the L4CES sitting around. I have no idea who makes them, but they do tend to wear out under heavy use.
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I had a Strat style guitar (brand will go unmentioned) that had a really bad dead spot on G string 12-13th frets. The note would initially ring then decay VERY quickly. I took the guitar to a luthier that has a Plek machine and had it analyzed. Not a fret issue. I did some research and when the frequency of neck reaches a similar frequency of the resulting body's vibration, the note will decay drastically.
You might not like the answer to the cure..... but this high-end small builder stood behind the guitar and made a new neck. Problem solved and the guitar plays and sounds terrific.
I have heard/read that if you build up the mass on the headstock (ie apply lead tape) this will change the frequency the neck resonate and you can greatly reduce, if not almost eliminate the problem.
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Ok, So things were great with the old tuners then you switched over and things not so great? I'm thinking two possible reasons tone transfer loss through the new tuners (could be the material the tuners are made of or the overall mass of the metal not there now) or could it be the string angle from the back of the nut to the tuner? I know on my Jazzmaster that when I have changed the angle behind the bridge and nut that my tone and resonance changed. I hope thats a help .
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The mass of the headstock was changed, which changed the frequency it vibrates at, and thus resulted in dead spots (or exaggerated their presence). Originally Posted by tedium
Here is a thread of TGP where Terry McInturff and others chime in on the topic....
Effects of added weight to headstock on dead spots? - The Gear Page
Dead spots on bolt-on guitars, G-String, 14th fret. Reason? - The Gear Page
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Damn . . . . just play a different note! Sheezzz!!
PT . . . the capacitors post cracked me up real good . . LOLOLOLOL
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There used to be a company that made a brass plate the shape of Fender headstock that could be attached to add mass. Then another company used to make these kind of oversized brass clothespin looking thing many guitarist used to attach to headstocks to add mass. Originally Posted by Kuz
I played bass for many years and dead spot are a problem. Sometimes changing brands or gauges of strings would help, other times you just learn the notes not to expect to ring.
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The mass that you add to the headstock was sold by groove tubes in the 80s iirc
Back then it was called a fat head
You can still get something called a fat finger Thanks for the posts for the gear page
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No problem posting the links. It is funny how you think a simple innocent mod like changing the tuners would not have a negative effect..... But I guess changing the total mass of the headstock can have it's negative consequences. Originally Posted by SamBooka
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Visions of getting car tires balanced, spinning the wheel and attaching weights. Maybe the next thing for guitarist will be to get their guitars balanced to eliminate dead spots. See a guitar at a gig with little weights clamped onto the headstock. Originally Posted by SamBooka
Oh it's too early need coffee
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