-
I've been very impressed with the clean sound of Class D amplifiers, I have a TC Electronics Classic 450, there has been great advances in "Class D" amplifier technology over the last 10 years, "Class D" is more efficient, converting more of the input current into sound pressure level (Stuff you can hear).
Class D amplifiers should be relatively inexpensive, because the power supply is smaller, there are less components needed and most of the work is done by the "off the shelf" chip.
These are "Class D" amps
Acoustic Image
Fender Jazzmaster Ultralight
TC Electronics Classic 450
But, why are they so expensive?
You can buy ready assembled 600W class D amp modules for $100:
1x600W TAS5630 Class-D Amplifier Board 320-311
Power supply, $130:
48 VDC 12.5A 600W Regulated Power Supply 320-317
Hmmmmm.......
Guy
P.S Most Car Amps are Class D.
-
02-11-2013 08:34 AM
-
Wll you do have the preamp, reverb, enclosure, cab and speaker (if it applies)... And these amps are usually directed to a small market so they need high margins to survive I guess. But given how simple these amps sometimes are they are indeed vey expensive... You also have Evans amps (even more expensive) and Mambo amps (cheaper than any you mentioned here in Europe).
-
You also have the small powered PA speakers with class D amplifiers that are inexpensive.
-
Yeah, I think you're dealing with a pretty niche market, and I also think the electronic know-how that goes into these things is a bit more complex than say, a tube amp. I see that link to the prewired board, but that's not an amp yet...and I don't think you're going to see a slew of garage builders turning out Acoustic Image clones...
Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
So you pay for a small market, and an incredibly high quality product.
(It should be noted, you can build a tube amp cheap too, but people still pay thousands for some of 'em)
-
It's coming. I bought both of my Carvin Power used but new they sell for about $280 retail. Their bass combo, complete with the preamp, all sorts of EQ options and a neodymium speaker sells for $299 and Im sure we'll see guitar equivalents soon.
-
Yes, the electronics are more complex but once you have everything designed I think they are still kind of cheap to produce - the thing is supporting the whole production, rental space, employees, bills, customer service and still making some money in the end it means they must be these expensive. Not that much people play jazz and a lot still go with regular tube amps. But I think the price of the Evans for example is completeley unjustified... At that price point you can get a killer tube amp already. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
It's true what you say about tube amps but I guess what you're paying sometimes is some sort of unique design (sometimes). That's sort of why the Evans are so expensive, they have an unique preamp system. In the end I don't think any of the small makers (tube or ss) are making tons of money, they have come with specific price points they assume is where they optimize price and quantity.
-
Hi Jim, the difference is... most bass players want a light powerful ss amp. Electric bass or double bass, jazz or rock, they all want that. On the guitar is a very small market... Guitar players are surprisingly conservative!! Another problem (that comes from lack of demand) is proper guitar speakers that can handle class d watts - the EV is amazing but very expensive and very heavy. Most jazz amp makers go with Betas which are a compromise (to me). Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
If there was demand I am positive a brand like TC or any of the big bass amp companies would produce a guitar amp. I mean just change the center frequencies on the preamp to match the guitar and have Celestion or Jensen making a powerfull guitaristic neo speaker and it would be done. But there's no demand...
Isolated power amps have grown a bit because of modelers. But even modelers have not yet grown that much... it's funny because to me both modelling and ss with neo speakers and class d amps have a lot of advantages over traditional rigs.
-
As I said in my first post, the complexity and the hard work is done by the Integrated Circuit (IC Chip), the basic functionality of the amp is relatively simple. Supply voltage to smoothing caps to Integrated Circuit to speakers. Obviously there is an Audio input. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
"Carvin Power used but new they sell for about $280 retail"
Good to see a more realistic price.
Guy
-
In my day gig I'm an Electrical Engineer for a company in Silicon Valley, I've worked here since I got out of university. My products go directly into some Class D amplifiers. I disagree with the basic premise that Class D amps are more expensive. I think the plethora of low cost, light weight amps of the last few years is driven by Class D technology, or by competition with them.
As a guitar player and tube amp builder, I resisted for a while. But for the right application, I am now a believer. Class D can give very hi-fi sound at a lower cost.
-
I think Class D Guitar amps are expensive in comparison to Class D amps for other applications. I have also built a few Tube amps for myself, but recently I've changes to Class D amps, because they have a great clean sound. Originally Posted by kamlapati
Guy
-
To be both blunt and, I think, accurate, a lot of these changes need my generation to die out as a significant market force. As a group, we've grown more and more conservative and resistant to change as we've aged and we have driven the market for traditional tube amps and other retro gear. It will change eventually and I think the time is starting to get very close. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
-
Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
Unfortunately, some folk will always think Black and White TV was best, it's probably due to the past memories of their TV favorites.
Guy
-
I wish that was true but to tell you the truth I don't see that happening. Jazz guys have their specialized amps mainly because they need a lot of clean sound in a small package but rock guys, even young ones, still get all nuts with tube amps. Most of them would not distinguish a clean ss from a clean tube probably but still... It would be logical that the new generations would change things but that's not what I see here in Lisbon at all. Even jazz guys would use tube amps if they did not have to carry them. It's a prejudice but it's still pretty strong... Even modelers have come such a long way, as your clips prove, that is still kind of funny seeing people paying so much cash for such heavy amps. Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
To my point of view I care much more about having an excellent preamp / eq than ss or tubes. It's much more relevant for me to be able to sculp my tone as I want than the sonic differences between both technologies. Even in the OD camp I just love how a RAT sounds trough an SS amp to tell you all the truth.
-
Yes but in theory the high price from jazz amps does not come from the power amp. The power amp is there to make things louder, if it's class d better because it's lighter. But what you pay for is for the fidelity / eq capabilities of the preamp and the cab / speaker design. What distinguishes Henriksen from Evans from Mambo from AI is mainly the preamp and cab design, not the power amp. And yes, the preamp is also cheap to make, but in theory you're paying a design that is supposed to be great for jazz players. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
-
This is very true. Our memory tends to romanticize the past and the amount of guys that make a livings making clones of 60s amps it's truly amazing... I wish more boutique amp makers dedicate themselves to unique or improved designs. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
-
I've found after many years of guitar playing, you get what you pay for ( amps or guitars. There are always good deals to be had, but quality does count and buying cheap and then spending to make sound good is a waste of time.
-
I've already built tube amps before and fixed a few SS amps, so I know it's not difficult, but it's time consuming. I think I'll built a small Class D amplifier, to prove how easy it is. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
I'll keep you posted.
Guy
-
Look forward to it!
From what I can gather talking to Jon Shaw ( mambo amps) the power amp is a relatively small part of the recipe. It's more about developing the preamp design, printing the board,, tuning the cabinet, optimising the cab with the speakers, sorting reverb out, scoping the tone centre frequencies, etc etc etc. I've built a few tube amps myself, and my experience is that getting it nearly right is not too hard, but getting it just right, and sounding right in the chosen packaging, is really very time-consuming.
And, it takes time away from playing...
-
I think ZT amps are all class D and they're pretty cheap. Solid state amps can be good, perfectly workable amps, but I still crave tube sound and response
-
Honestly, I don't believe that guitarists are as recalcitrant as y'all seem to think.
Yes, there's a good selection of boutique tube amps. Well..., good if you want a rehash of a design from fifty years ago. Even the "fresh new" boutique designs are mostly variations on a vintage theme. On the other hand, boutique amp sales are not a dominant force in the marketplace.
You can see a change in what guitarists want just by looking at the offerings from all the major amp manufacturers. Guitarists used to want "big" amps; the bigger the better. Half-stacks, full-stacks, Fender Twins, 100-watt amps... Heck, there was a time when a 50-watt amp was considered "just passable"... Needs (and tastes) change. Nowadays darned near every major manufacturer has multiple compact, low-watt offerings. It used to be that amps in this category were always stripped-down practice amps; that's no longer true.
If you want further evidence of a sea change, look no further than modelers. Young players glom onto these for the wide palette of tonal colors and effects available at a low price. Older players relish the convenience of carrying a tiny rig that they can plug into any PA. And, of course, there are boutique modelers available for boutique tastes and budgets.
As far as the posted insights regarding Class D amplification...
Just because you can buy components inexpensively doesn't mean that a manufacturer can sell a product at close to the cost of the components. I had a stint in consumer electronics about thirty years ago; I learned that - as a rule of thumb - the selling price of a product "should be" about five times the cost of materials. Whether that remains true (or if it ever was)... I have no idea. However, the underlying principle remains valid. In addition to the materials cost, a manufacturer must:
- amortize fixed costs of creating the product (this contributes proportionally more to the retail price as the number of units sold decreases). Examples of such costs include research, design, tooling, regulatory agency certification and patent and trademark registration.
- provide for intermediate markups so a distributor and retailer can make some money selling your product
- provide for technical support, returns, warranty services and shipping losses related directly to the product
- provide for all the other costs of running a business (taxes, fees, salaries and benefits, heat, electricity, real-estate, insurance, etc.)
- provide for the cost of evaluation units and all other marketing expenses
- cover shipping costs (even though this is often hidden from the consumer, *someone* pays to package and ship the product; often multiple times)
I'm unconvinced that there's anything special or expensive in the preamp design of a jazz amp. I believe that the cost is adequately explained by the above factors.Last edited by TieDyedDevil; 02-11-2013 at 03:11 PM.
-
The Quilter Micro Pro 200 is a Class D design that's relatively inexpensive at $899, or $699 for the head only. I've played through one and I find it versatile, warm and responsive to all guitar voices.
-
What I'd really like is something just like my Carvin power amp in a non-rack mount, small form factor case that could sit on top of a small RE cab. I don't need a pre-amp as part of it. I'd rather stay with my modeler for that.
-
Maybe not expensive but certainly special. Mambo is the first jazz amp I tried that got the preamp just right... and to me that's the main difference between jazz amp makers. If not the preamp what distinguishes them? (cab design is also relevant usually) Originally Posted by TieDyedDevil
-
Look forward to see it. I think that making one would be cheap but making it at a larger scale would be hard to reach a very low price point giving all it takes when you start getting bigger. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
-
It's a mystery to me why doesn't a brand comes with a small class d power amp to use with external preamps... It seems to me it would be something like an Evans or AI but without the preamp part. Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
Reply With Quote
Critic my Jazz Improvisation Solo practice
Today, 02:43 AM in Improvisation