Solid Carved Maple or Laminated Maple?

**Jabberwocky** · 02-21-2013, 01:46 AM

Solid Carved Maple or Laminated Maple?-l4cesfront-jpg

This is the back of a 2012 Gibson L-4CES offered by a certain dealer. The dealer's sales representative tells me that the back and rim are of solid maple. Does this look like solid maple or laminated maple? It is a Gibson L-4CES custom ordered by the dealer though with one neck pup.

What do you all think?

I have a 2006 ES-175 Natural, a 2002 ES-5 Natural and a 2000 L-4CES Sunburst and the respective backs all look like that. So, I have my doubts that it is solid maple as claimed by the dealer. It comes at quite a premium; over $10 000 for an L-4CES with a single neck pup and purported solid maple back and rim.

I am not suggesting that the dealer is dishonest. I think he is mistaken. I emailed him to verify with Gibson. What if somebody buys it and finds out years later that it is not solid maple. What recourse does he have? It is the price tag that is the issue.

**fws6** · 02-21-2013, 03:20 AM

If you know the serial you can just call Gibson customer service and ask. The back looks like one piece (?) so likely veneered not solid. Could be a nicely matched solid back though.

**HighSpeedSpoon** · 02-21-2013, 06:20 AM

Interesting. I blew up the image and thought it looked like two well-matched pieces, but I could not be sure. More importantly to me, I just learned that a one piece back is likely veneered and not solid. (Thanks for that.)

Jabberwocky?

**marcwhy** · 02-21-2013, 08:55 AM

$10K for an L-4?!?! Since when?! Usually those are between $2400-3500. I had a nice one, but couldn't get rid of it (everyone wanted a 175!). Keep looking.

If you have that much to spend on a guitar, there are SO MANY luthiers out there who can make exactly what you want for great prices.

**PTChristopher** · 02-21-2013, 09:00 AM

In my opinion:

- You will never experience a sound difference between a solid vs. laminated maple back.

- If you think about how the grain appears, the back appears as a veneer shaved off the face of a cylinder of maple - not a board cut from what would have to be a maple from the planet Brglenymphygrukh where maples grow to be 8 feet in diameter.

- This looks like a very nice guitar. It has the huge advantage of being absurdly easy to partially finish since it is a nice clear natural. So stripping off the goo and putting a good lacquer on it would be fast.

- There may well be someone ready to drop 10 big ones for reasons all their own. If a normal used-minty modern L4 CES goes for maybe $3,000 to $3,500, this special one could maybe be considered worth upward of $5,000 to a motivated buyer. I guess the dealer is not crazy in throwing it out there for 10K to see what happens. Or it is presented as a new guitar, with some sort of hopeful pricing from the dealer?

Chris

**rpguitar** · 02-21-2013, 09:58 AM

Regardless of how the maple back and sides were formed, it's not a feature worth paying such a premium for, and any dealer who would promote that feature as "extraordinary" has no clue.

Very nice looking guitar otherwise.

**Jabberwocky** · 02-21-2013, 11:16 AM

Comes out of the private reserve arm of a Big Box Store now owned by Bain Capital. My eyes popped out of my sockets when I received the quote. I stuttered and said, "How MUCH?" Yes, sold as a new guitar.

I was incredulous.

They are deadly serious about the price too. What could they be thinking?

Oh well, hey, I found it: Gibson Custom L4 CES Mahogany Hollowbody Electric Guitar (Antique Natural) | Musician's Friend .

**Jim Soloway** · 02-21-2013, 11:26 AM

I've had pieces of maple wide enough to do a 1-piece back on a guitar like that. It's expensive but not prohibitively so, especially when you have non-retail sources for wood.

**2bornot2bop** · 02-21-2013, 01:26 PM

So, a dealer is now pricing L4's more than the cost of a new Wesmo...brilliant.

**Jim Soloway** · 02-21-2013, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop

So, a dealer is now pricing L4's more than the cost of a new Wesmo...brilliant.

If it's in fact a custom piece with solid woods and features, then why not? If they're both carved, then I can't think of any feature in the Montgomery that make it inherently more valuable or more expensive to build.

**2bornot2bop** · 02-21-2013, 01:48 PM

the obvious...no matter how custom an L4 can be in the end it's an L4... and an L4 doesn't hold the mystique nor the demand of a WesMo...if that's incorrect set me straight...learning here.

**Jim Soloway** · 02-21-2013, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop

the obvious...no matter how custom an L4 can be in the end it's an L4... and an L4 doesn't hold the mystique nor the demand of a WesMo...if that's incorrect set me straight...learning here.

No, you're probably right but I personally don't put much value on mystique. So my question would be whether the real error is the price on the L4 or the price on Montgomery?

**PTChristopher** · 02-21-2013, 01:54 PM

>>> I've had pieces of maple wide enough to do a 1-piece back on a guitar like that.

Showing the curl and grain in the pic so you are looking down at the radial axis (of the wood/tree) in all places on the back, and seeing the tangential axis going across the full 16" of the back? That would be an amazing tree.

Chris

**Jim Soloway** · 02-21-2013, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

>>> I've had pieces of maple wide enough to do a 1-piece back on a guitar like that.

Showing the curl and grain in the pic so you are looking down at the radial axis (of the wood/tree) in all places on the back, and seeing the tangential axis going across the full 16" of the back? That would be an amazing tree.

Chris

Here are some of our 1-piece maple tops. These are 15" rather than 16" but in many instances we had an extra 1" or more to spare. And all of these tops came from boards that were at least 1" thick to start.

**kris** · 02-21-2013, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

Here are some of our 1-piece maple tops. These are 15" rather than 16" but in many instances we had an extra 1" or more to spare. And all of these tops came from boards that were at least 1" thick to start.

Beautifull work!!!

**PTChristopher** · 02-21-2013, 03:05 PM

Jim,

Indeed, great looking guitars - and we already know how fine they sound.

Your first two pics do a great job of illustrating my comment on the L4 back.

On your first two pics you can see that you are looking into the radial grain more or less under the low E string. Then the grain turns more toward the tangential grain as you move away from the low E.

On the L4 pic, I see (as best as possible in the pic) radial grain right across the back, which you get from cutting continuous veneers off the surface of the "log". This is why I have the opinion that the L4 shows a maple ply veneer on the back.

The wood in your first two pics (which show the radial grain the best) could maybe make a 4 or 5" board that showed the characteristic radial grain.

Thanks for posting the pics.

Chris

**Drifter** · 02-23-2013, 10:27 AM

Just as a comparison take a look at this Custom L4. Here at least the high price is somehow understandable (not that I think it's worth it).

Gibson - L-4 Thinline Art Deco 1 Antique Natural : Semi-acoustic guitars

**va3ux** · 02-23-2013, 11:59 AM

I don't how they price that thing at $10K when the Gibson website shows a MSRP of $6468 for this model with solid mahogany back and sides and solid spruce top.

It also my understanding that the L-4 CES has always been made from solid woods instead of laminates. I've always thought of it as a solid wood ES-175. Have they ever made the L4CES with laminate ?

**Archtop 13** · 03-24-2013, 08:18 PM

I'd certainly want to inspect it. The sides could very well be 1 piece, not tough to argue that. I certainly wouldn't guess that back to be solid but, I've seen stranger things... In either case, I'd expect some recurve tuning for such price.