Floating Pickup Vs Acoustic Pickup

[IanBart]

Hello,
Forgive me if this maybe a noob question, just ordered my first Archtop and wanting get the input on ways to amplify.
The guitar I have coming will be Acoustic F hole with the view to add Floating PU but unsure whether the Pure Acoustic Bridge style maybe better?
I will not be using the guitar in a band situation but playing at home whilst I continue to improve my skills and also playing live accompanying another guitar and my vocal at Open Mics and small romed gigs through house sound desk. Also may at times play through my Fender Blues Jnr but might trade for more suitable amp.
Dont really know anything about which system is best, just know I won't be cranking the volume.
Any help much appreciated

[Woody Sound]

If you want it to sound like an acoustic archtop (gypsy jazz, Eddie Lang, Freddie Green, etc), then get the acoustic bridge pickup. If you want it to sound like an electric archtop (Wes Montgomery, Barney Kessel, Kenny Burrell, etc) then get the floating mag pickup.

There are guitars with both.

[IanBart]

Thanks Woody,
I didn't really have a particular type/sound in mind to be honest, more the requirements I need it for.
At home I'm slowly progressing with Howard Morgen's Chord Melody lessons so can play Acousticaly no problem. Eventually I'd like to be in a position to perform that style at small gig/open mic stuff. I use a Gibson J185 as my main playing out guitar at the moment which covers most of the stuff I do swingy/Blues with vocal and sometimes 1 more guitar.

[Doctor Jeff]

I would give the piezo pickup a try...Barcus-Berry makes a good bar-type contact pickup (will need a 1/8" spacer such as a Popsicle stick glued to the bottom and sanded to the arch profile). Also a lot of people like the K and K contact pickups, and Fishman makes a saddle with the pickup built in.

I went with the BB Outsider, because it was completely non-permanent - has an external pickup jack. It was also among the cheapest.

if you have a good acoustic amp and/or preamp you should be in good shape.

Some folks also have added a magnetic pickup as well and wired both pickups to a stereo jack, then blended the sounds with a preamp. That's more complicated and expensive of course.

[Spook410]

- Adding a floating magnetic pickup is harder than it looks. You have to get a solid mounting on the pickguard while getting the pickup situated right where you want it (X, Y, and Z axis) under the strings. Adding under pickguard vol/tone is easy. Don't know how hard getting a wired endpin jack in place is. I added a Kent Armstrong 12 pole floater and I like the sound of the guitar quite a bit. It's very roughly like a Sunrise in a flat top. A humbucker but not onerously so.

- Never met a piezo I liked. Even running a Fishman UST with an Aura setup in a Martin D28 I have problems getting the quack out. Not thrilled with it.

- Have not tried a K&K inside the box transducer setup on a flat top or archtop yet though they do get a lot of love over on the Acoustic Guitar Forums. Not sure how analogous the different versions of their mini/classic is to the archtop models. The former mounts on the bridge plate while the latter to the underside just inside the f holes.

- I want to try a K&K Definity because it looks really easy to mount and I think it will probably sound just about as good as anything else. The site recordings are amazing which is not surprising I suppose given professional production. Don't know how that translates to actual use.

Definity System | K&K Sound

[IanBart]

Hey thanks all for the input, lots to ponder. I will be getting my guitar tech to sort out install and tweak the necessasary. The fact that I will be playing mostly unaccompanied when performing questions whether I would need a magnetic floating pickup but I guess so much of the 'associated Jazz guitar sound' on an Archtop is due to this style of pickup, or am I wrong?
Be interested in learning more about blending the bridge style and magnetic, has anyone tried this? Results?

Thanks again for input, much to learn

[Woody Sound]

Be interested in learning more about blending the bridge style and magnetic, has anyone tried this? Results?

Thanks again for input, much to learn

Not an archtop, but here's an example of a guitar with both.

Godin Guitars

[AlohaJoe]

I'd prefer a magnetic floater and it should work well with a Blues Junior. IMO, the BJ is perfectly suitable for your current needs, but don't go cheap on the pickup.

[Spook410]

I'd prefer a magnetic floater and it should work well with a Blues Junior. IMO, the BJ is perfectly suitable for your current needs, but don't go cheap on the pickup.

Oh yea.. through a Blues Junior. Given how you'll be amplifying it, the above is the right answer. And if you'll be having a tech do the install, no problem. Bear in mind that you'll need to run strings appropriate for a magnetic pickup. This means electric guitar strings rather than something like 80/20's. This may diminish the acoustic sound a bit but I still think you'll really like the sound a good floater pup is going to give you on a solid wood carved archtop.

If you just want to play with something you're welcome to one of the Wilkenson floaters I didn't use. They are not a very good pickup and not a good long term solution, but sometimes 'free' is a good place to start when experimenting.

[ah.clem]

Pick Up The World under bridge archtop piezos get really good reviews. The are sold by archtop.com. l think that Mr. B had one, but I might be mistaken. You might ask him as he is knowledgeable and a straight shooter on gear and jazz and life. Seems to me he had good things to say about the PUTW units a few years ago.

[IanBart]

Seems there is love for both different systems which still makes it unsure which to go with.
Although at times I will play though the BJ it will be probably be only 30% of the time, the rest through house PA when playing out. At home will be mostly unplugged.
the soundclip Spiral has sent of his K&K pure Archtop hits the tone I'd favour so leaning the way of bridge pickup and trading the BJ for something in an Acoustic Jazz Amp if something like that exists?

[Spook410]

- Sound clips I posted were K&K Definity system from their website. Going to have to try one of these. Trying to figure out which preamp now.

- Geert on this forum did post a K&K pure archtop clip (different pickup, same company) and it does sound really good. https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guita...e-archtop.html

- There are lots of good acoustic amps. Acoustic Image, AER, Schertel(SR), and Unico make appropriate models. Can be expensive ($1000-$1500). There are also several flat top acoustic guitar amps you can try at your local GC. Since few install only acoustic pups in their archtops I haven't seen much discussion on these. They are less expensive. More like $300-$500.

- A portable PA (e.g. a preamp or modeler driving something like a QSC K10) will do the same thing. Still probably $1000 or more depending on the front end but a very flexible setup since you can tailor each component to your needs. There's also the Bose L1 and Fishman SA220.

- You still may like your BJ and a floating magnetic better anyway. It should give a nice woody sound and you can leverage all the tools from guitar world without worrying about conversions from high impedance acoustic pickups. If you currently only run a single setup, might be a good place to start there before expanding out.

[Geert]

I did indeed have the K&K pure arch top in my The loar. I did however change it for a floater, not because I wasn't happy with the sound (I was) but because I wanted a more electric sound. I chose the Benedetto S6 which actually sounded very 'acoustic'. It did very well preserve the acoustic qualities of the guitar. Perhaps this is what you are looking for.
I changed the Benedetto for a K Armstrong single coil, which gives a much more electric (traditional) jazz sound.

Hope this helps,

G

[IanBart]

Cheers all,
I think I was getting bogged down with all the choices and various systems when really I should look to keep it simple with my first real Jazz Box. I guess I can always experiment on the next one's
thanks Geert for the S6 direction, I think this could be a winner given the clips I've heard. It sits right in the middle of the tone spectrum I was looking for and seems less hassle trying to install a blend system. Did you replace for purely shift to more electric sound or something other? Going by the blurb it wil take both bronze and nickel strings, did you try variations with it?

Thanks again

[Geert]

IanBart,

I did indeed change the S6 in order to get a more electric sound, but I must say i had a hard time getting a good sound at higher volumes, especialy in a group situation, with this pickup. The highs got very harsh, and I wasn't able to dial out enough bottom end not to interfere with the bassplayer.

I must add that i never tried it on any high end amps, just my Roland cube.
It would have sounded better on a more dedicated jazz or acoustic amp, I'm sure.
Nevertheless I really liked the Benedetto for playing solo at livingroom volumes.

I did try the pickup with a number of different strings, bronze, nickel, flatwound and roundwounds.
On most strings I had problems with getting a good balance (the B string was much more quiet than the rest) especialy with flatwounds.
I got the best results with a set of Tomastic roundwounds .12.

Hope this helps,

G

[spiral]

the soundclip Spiral has sent of his K&K pure Archtop hits the tone I'd favour so leaning the way of bridge pickup and trading the BJ for something in an Acoustic Jazz Amp if something like that exists?

I had PM'd my clip to IanBart because i didn't have much to add to the thread but if anyone else is curious, here is the clip he mentioned. It is the guitar, direct through an Apogee Jam, w/ no EQ, then with some EQ and reverb in the 2nd half:

Geert's clip is good too and what helped me decide to get a K&K. I don't use it as much as a magnetic floating pickup, but it is invisible, and it's a nice-to-have on an otherwise acoustic guitar. You could do both on the same guitar if you were so inclined.

[BigToe]

I'm in the market for a contact pickup for my Eastman 605 and the the K&K archtop pickup in both audio clips sound nicely acoustic and clear but with some warmth. I dont sense a lot of quack. K&K doesn't seem to have this pickup on their website anymore and instead there is the "Definity" system. I wonder how much difference there is between the two?

[spiral]

I suggest emailing them. They are very fast to reply and can guide you best. I wish they still carried the Pure Archtop as it didn't require a preamp and was invisible.

[BigToe]

I wrote to K&K about their Pure Archtop and Definity pickups and here are the questions and answers:

Hi, I'm noticing that you don't have the Pure archtop pickup listed anymore
and it seems the Definity has replaced that model. I have a few questions:
A. what might the sonic differences be between these two pickups?
B. is one more prone to feedback than the other?
C. Is the Definity sold without the preamp?


Thanks very much!
Tony

Tony,


We have discontinued the Pure Archtop pickup from production as we feel the
Definity pickup does a better job of reproducing the archtop (and other
floating bridge instruments) guitar. However we realize there are occasions
when the externally mounted Definity pickup may not be desirable nor the
best solution. For these cases we still provide essentially the same pickup
as the Pure Bass 4 string model. This pickup is in all significant aspects
identical to the previous Pure Archtop pickup.
The Definity produces a fuller more bodied sound with a higher output signal
then the Pure Archtop pickup and is smaller and lighter in weight (which
translates to less acoustic dampening). It is also easier to install and
remove than the previous design.
The Definity pickup has a higher gain before feedback the soundboard mounted
Pure Archtop pickup.
The Definity pickup can be purchased without the preamp however this pickup
is less predictable in phase relationship and therefore the ability to
switch the phase of the signal somewhere in the sound chain is essential to
get a good reproduced sound. If this capability exists in equipment already
in use then the specific preamps we sell are needed however the capability
must be present somewhere in the system.


If I can be of any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact us.


Best regards,


Jack Baley
K&K Sound Systems
Technical Support

[Doctor Jeff]

The Definity looks pretty cool, at a decent price. I probably would have gotten it if it had been available when I was looking. Re' Pure Archtop, I would be reluctant to use a piezo without a preamp. Number one, it boosts the output. Number two, in my experience it is very difficult to balance the sound and get rid of the piezo quack and excessive string noise without a preamp with equalization. My Fishman ProEq has a presence slider than takes out the harsh treble.

Interestingly, last night I plugged the archie into my iPad directly with no preamp (using iRig) and played around with Garage Band. It sounded pretty good, both the jazz stuff and even the heavily modded sounds.

I have been going back and forth (mentally) between piezo and magnetic. I currently have a Barcus Berry piezo on my acoustic archie, but most of the music I listen to and love uses magnetic pickups. I would ideally like to get a DeArmond but don't want to spend the bucks for a used one. I might go with a Kent Armstrong floater sometime.

Re' amplifiers, I will say again how much I like the Ibanez Troubadour series for acoustic amplification. Sounds great, nice design, excellent price.

[chipmonk78]

I'm not sure where the OP is from, but my costings are in £. The information below may inform your decision.

If someone is kind enough to offer a free pickup, another £50 to have a guitar tech install with a jack, volume and tone controls gets you up and running. The jack doesn't have to be permanent, so it's reversible. Wilkinson's aren't bad. Because I'm from Yorkshire and it requires a court order and a wrecking crew to extract money from my wallet, that seems a good option to begin with. Floating pickups start at around £25, and with jack, volume & tone controls and installation, expect to shell out up to £80. Playing through a Fender Blues Jnr solo at low levels, it will sound fine, but will start to break up if you need enough volume to play with a bass and drums.

Archtop bridges with piezos cost, for example; £99 new for a Schatten, £189 for a Fishman. An onboard preamp powered by a battery, such as the Fishman, will set you back around £80. The preamp comes with a stereo jack, and can blend with a magnetic system. A permanent installation means a small hole drilled below the bridge, another one for the jack and one for preamp. It's not a good idea to try and do a temporary install, as any movement can risk dislodging wires from the preamp. Installation by a guitar tech is advisable, unless you're OK with a soldering iron as the preamp is on a printed board. However, it will not sound great through a Blues Jnr, and further outlay may be needed for an acoustic amp. Up to just £225 to £300 with installation, depending on which bridge you go with, plus £200-£500 for an amp - and you'll find views on these differ, some like the Lunchbox Acoustic, others Fishman, others AER.

Magnetic and piezo combined can sound good (Martin Taylor did that for many years) but the total outlay is heading for £400, plus around £200-£500 for an amp, AND your new archtop is a different instrument. To put this in context, the Yamaha AEX500 guitar, which has both magnetic and piezo, has a decent sound and a nice on board pre-amp, can be picked up for £200-£300.

Hope that helps.