Locking Tuners

**Musically Mr M** · 05-28-2013, 12:53 AM

,,,,,what are you using?

Doesn't really matter to me as to whether or not the guitar cost cost $100 dollars, $100,000 and all parts in between. If it won't reasonably stay in tune, then it's garbage (IMHO). I am a proponent of locking tuners. Many players say that they change the tonal characteristics of the guitar, add weight, devalue the guitar because of modifications, etc......but if it won't at least stay in tune for one set, well that's a problem for me.

I use on my various guitars (25 in the family ) HipShot Lockers, Sperzels, Grover Lockers (Standard and Minis), Planet Waves and Schallers. Which do you prefer and why? Love to hear your views.

And.......

..........if you wouldn't use a locking tuner to save your life or reputation, tell us about that too

**cosmic gumbo** · 05-28-2013, 03:24 AM

I haven't used locking tuners on any of my guitars in 35 years, play blues, funk, r&b, plenty of string bending, including a strat with whammy...never any tuning problems. I know how to install strings so they don't slip, and keep the nut slots lubricated. Maybe I don't understand locking tuners.

**Musically Mr M** · 05-28-2013, 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I haven't used locking tuners on any of my guitars in 35 years, play blues, funk, r&b, plenty of string bending, including a strat with whammy...never any tuning problems. I know how to install strings so they don't slip, and keep the nut slots lubricated. Maybe I don't understand locking tuners.

One of the basic principles of of the locking tuner concept is reducing the amount of "windings" of the string around the post.
This reduces the potential of string drifting on the tuner shaft reducing tuner problems. Simply pushing the string into the eyelet, tightening down the locking screw as with the Sperzels or actuating the locking cam with the Grovers keeps the string in place, allows accurate tuning with less turns and less material on the post itself. Also with the Planet Waves tuners (cam actuated as well), Strings are automatically cut to the proper length as you wind the tuner. An excellent design by Ned Steinberger. Less string winding around the post equals less string slippage giving less tuning problems.

**Clamps** · 05-28-2013, 10:43 AM

I've got locking tuners on my jazzmaster, because I can divebomb that baby with no regrets. Not too frequently in a 'jazz' setting, but occasionally it might help

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 05-28-2013, 11:31 AM

I have one guitar that came with locking tuners and I don't see a down side. Too heavy? The guitar isn't neck heavy. Ugly? I have Schallers and I don't think they are ugly, but how often do you stare at your tuners?

Maybe it's too easy to change strings, larf.

One day, I'd like to have a set of Steinberger gearless tuners on a guitar, just because I think the design is good engineering -- they went back to fist principles rather than adding features to the standard tuner.

**jckoto3** · 05-28-2013, 11:45 AM

Those Steinberger gearless tuners are pretty elegant, but I don't like how there's a sharp protrusion of string right where it would poke the fingertip or thumb, puncture the skin, give you sepsis and die

Just kidding. I never knew about them before, now I want them. Maybe if I ever put together a Warmoth guitar.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 05-28-2013, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by jckoto3

Those Steinberger gearless tuners are pretty elegant, but I don't like how there's a sharp protrusion of string right where it would poke the fingertip or thumb, puncture the skin, give you sepsis and die

Just kidding. I never knew about them before, now I want them. Maybe if I ever put together a Warmoth guitar.

I know you're joking but I still think they should have trimmed them better for the picture.

**cosmic gumbo** · 05-28-2013, 06:00 PM

So, my misconception could be that the tuners themselves lock, when actually they are just locking the strings into the tuners...it does seem like a great concept that has no downside. Quick string changes and no slippage. I love learning new things!

**msr13** · 05-28-2013, 06:13 PM

I have Hipshots on my Soloways. It would never have occurred to me to get them until Jim offered them, but I do like the convenience when changing strings. And neither guitar ever seems to go out of tune which may or may not be directly related to the locks. I like them, though.

**docbop** · 05-28-2013, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by Musically Mr M

One of the basic principles of of the locking tuner concept is reducing the amount of "windings" of the string around the post.
This reduces the potential of string drifting on the tuner shaft reducing tuner problems. Simply pushing the string into the eyelet, tightening down the locking screw as with the Sperzels or actuating the locking cam with the Grovers keeps the string in place, allows accurate tuning with less turns and less material on the post itself. Also with the Planet Waves tuners (cam actuated as well), Strings are automatically cut to the proper length as you wind the tuner. An excellent design by Ned Steinberger. Less string winding around the post equals less string slippage giving less tuning problems.

I've been stringing and tuning guitars for myself and as a guitar tech on the road for decades and the that sounds like marketing hype to me. First always want as much string around the shaft as possible usually about 3 winding on wound strings and 5 on plain string but the string gauge will determine what can fit smoothly. If string is wound properly there is zero slack and it add mass transfer string energy back to guitar. Also back wind and loop string under itself (there are youtubes of people demoing this) That has the string holding itself tight in position and no slipping. Last I would stretch the string during initial tuning many times to get it settled in. Back in my roadie days I could change a broken string using method above and give guitarist back at intune instrument that will hold its tuning.

A guitar with a good pro setup and restrung right is going to hold its tuning.

**Tom Karol** · 05-28-2013, 09:06 PM

I have one guitar with Sperzels. I don't think that they hold better than ordinary high-quality tuners when proper restringing methodology is used as DocBop notes above. But they sure make changing strings a breeze - I can do it in half the time.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 05-28-2013, 10:38 PM

Solely for informational value...

EDIT: watch the end of the video. She turned the tuner the wrong way!

**docbop** · 05-29-2013, 12:19 AM

Here's the man who taught me how to change strings back in the 70's here's a video on non-locking tuners.

**DRS** · 05-29-2013, 10:57 AM

I have Sperzels on my Strat and Schallers on my Tele and I like the Sperzels a wee bit more. They feel more solid.

**Nabil B** · 05-29-2013, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by docbop

Here's the man who taught me how to change strings back in the 70's here's a video on non-locking tuners.

That's how I string my guitars, and I never felt the need for locking tuners.

**Musically Mr M** · 05-29-2013, 02:34 PM

Hey Big Daddy, I understood the point of posting this but......

.............did you really have to resort to the "bimbotron"?

**Musically Mr M** · 05-29-2013, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by docbop

I've been stringing and tuning guitars for myself and as a guitar tech on the road for decades and the that sounds like marketing hype to me. First always want as much string around the shaft as possible usually about 3 winding on wound strings and 5 on plain string but the string gauge will determine what can fit smoothly. If string is wound properly there is zero slack and it add mass transfer string energy back to guitar. Also back wind and loop string under itself (there are youtubes of people demoing this) That has the string holding itself tight in position and no slipping. Last I would stretch the string during initial tuning many times to get it settled in. Back in my roadie days I could change a broken string using method above and give guitarist back at intune instrument that will hold its tuning.

A guitar with a good pro setup and restrung right is going to hold its tuning.

Doc, I somewhat agree with you. I've been stringing my own guitars for over 30 years as well....long enough that at this point to me,it's like changing a reed on a clarinet or saxophone. (I have a degree in woodwind performance....just sayin')

If the tuners are of good quality (which in my oppinion, most guitars in the $500-1000 range do not-cost cutting), then the thread/wrap method works pretty well. (I love Waverly's for acoustics and Grovers for most other applications) But I would go as far as to say (from a technical perspective), mechanically locking a string and decreasing the amount of winds around the post is definitely the best way to mount a string. No windings to shift and move around (changing tuning) and it eliminates all the other steps when changing strings.....goodness, the Planet Waves even trim the string for you. Someone also mentioned multiple windings helping to transfer string energy. Most lockers are stout enough to transfer vibration/energy to the wood by design. I simply think lockers are a better proposition all together for those of us who are really particular about intonation and consistancy. (especially when most of us do tip out into "bendy-bendy land" every now and again)

**Jim Soloway** · 06-01-2013, 11:54 AM

I find locking tuners to be a minor but real convenience for a very small price. We've offered some form of lockers to our customers since day one and I would guess that we've put them on about 325 out of 375 guitars with Hipshot lockers on about 250 of those. I have never once had a customer ask us to change them to non-locking tuners. In fact, I don't think I've ever had a customer express any unhappiness about having locking tuners once they took delivery of the guitar.

**Jim Soloway** · 06-01-2013, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by Guitar

I couldn't take anyone seriously who believed tuners noticeably change the tone. Ask them if they're willing to bet on it with a blindfold.

I may have missed it but I don't believe anyone here has made any claim about tuners changing tone.

**xuoham** · 06-01-2013, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by Guitar

I prefer Sperzels but recently have purchased a few unbadged sets from the OEM guys in Asia who sell on ebay.
As expected, they're just as good as when they're branded with someone elses name on them and sold for 4X the price

I agree, i have some guitars with Gotoh locking tuners, which are great, but also have some guitars equipped with inexpensive GFS "Sperzel Type" locking tuners, and they are just great, smooth, reliable, even after five years. For 30 bucks !
Like you say, "as good as when they're branded with someone elses name on them and sold for 4X the price".

**pingu** · 06-01-2013, 07:40 PM

Got locking Sperzals on a 335 and they're very good
Used to change strings regularly when I played pop music on it
So they were very helpful

Got some of the Gotoh Magnum auto locking string cutting type on another guitar
didn't work at all for me with TI Jazz swing 13s
kept breaking the 6th string at the peg ... too sharp an angle I think .... damn
Might have been a faulty tuner I guess

but I gave up and got some Grover Sta-tites which look great on my old Hofner President
and they're very good too

Hardly ever change strings now I play Jazz on Flats so locking tuners aren't so important

**Jim Soloway** · 06-01-2013, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by Guitar

Oh well. I missed that. I don't see any of this as a tone issue but rather a matter of convenience and stability.

**docbop** · 06-01-2013, 11:12 PM

I did a search and don't see anyone mention "tone" before Guitar did in his post.

Update:

Since Guitar said "tone" was there I clicked on search again and tone does not appear in the thread before he mentions it. I'm done with this thread.

**Musically Mr M** · 06-01-2013, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by Guitar

For point of clarification, I never said that agreed that Locking tuners altered the tone of any guitar. If you do any research at all, you'll find that there a contingent of folks that do believe that; "me" not being amongst those. I simply reiterate that, in my opinion, locking tuners do a much better job at maintaining intonation-staying in tune than their non-locking counterparts.

**feet** · 06-01-2013, 11:47 PM

my les paul came with locking grovers with tiny buttons on them. they are fine, i guess. i rarely change strings, so i'm not that good at it with the locking tuners. i think i sometimes leave too much play on them. and one string end stabbed the crap out of me and drew blood from my index finger tip, which is problematic for a guitar player.

i don't know if they are any more or less stable, but they are faster. don't like the little buttons, though. hope some regular sized ones fit. thats my biggest problem with locking tuners, actually. the aesthetics. they just look kinda "meh", in general.