Going back to thinner guitar picks

[3625]

When I first started playing jazz 20 years ago, I used to use either mediums or heavies up to 1mm - thicker picks didn't seem to be that common then, at least not in the circles I moved in. The last several years I've been experimenting with heavier picks up to 3.5mm, most commonly 1.5mm (played only pro-plecs for about 2 years).

I had a technique breakthrough in my picking speed which in large part was due to a thicker pick, it seemed easier to co-ordinate between my right and left hand. However, on an archtop I've never been comfortable with how thick picks sound and feel when strumming chords. You can get a big full tone for single line playing, but raking across the strings for a chord often sounds like using a piece of concrete with lots of horrible overtones ('chirp' or 'click').

So recently I've gone back to playing mediums and heavies (fender mostly) and to me, they seem to really suit archtops, especially in terms of overall technique (switching back and forth between chords and melody). Something about a thinner pick with higher tension strings seems to feel 'right'. I've got a feeling most of the older players from the 50's didn't use really thick picks either - I know Raney used mediums, and Farlow used a fender heavy. Jim Hall uses a few different types during the same gig, but for comping they're medium or thin.

Any thoughts?

[Spirit59]

A couple of things...

Not all thick picks "chirp" or otherwise create pick noise. Sometimes any resultant pick noise is partly due to how the pick is held.


Not so much a function of a pick's thickness, but more about it's rigidity - the moment a pick flexes, you're not in complete control of the instrument anymore - that matters to me a bunch.

[Spook410]

Thinner picks? (worries) Someone get 3625 some coffee..

[SamBooka]

I used medium picks when I played .010 and .011s .. above that I had to go to a heavier pick.
I hear you on the chirp thing.. and my technique actually changed fairly early on to hybrid picking where I play the bass string of a chord with a pick and pluck the rest with my fingers. if you find going to a lighter pick gets you where you are going then don't let anyone here discourage you

[Apprentice]

I personally like at least .96mm or higher because I think I lose the "attack" when I do solos with thinner picks. My current favorite is Planet Waves Black Ice extra Heavy (1.5mm.)

[Philco]

With you 3625. I love the sound of medium Fenders and M-L Jim Dunlops. I love that little slap on the top of the note. It defines the bottom end.
I can see why players love heavy plectrums and I have quite a few of them collecting dust. It's the way they push through the string. It feels powerful and you feel in control.
The fat Weggens I have do impose their own sound. Lots of noise.
The fatter Blue Chip picks don't have enough definition for me.
Fender picks sound great to me.
Although I think if I used the traditional grip I would be in trouble with the lighter picks I'm using.
You just have to keep experimenting and see what works best for you. Luckily we have every imaginable shape, material and thickness at our disposal.

I was at my luthiers shop a couple of months or so ago and I bought a 12 string (for recording). He pulled a Jim Dunlop M-L from his pocket and gave it to me to use on the 12 string. I've been using them ever since. $.60 each!!!

[3625]

Didn't know Dunlop had a Medium Light gauge, I'll check that out since I'm a pick nut - got some D'Andrea celluloid 351's arriving in the mail soon... switching back and forth between celluloid and ultex atm.

Something about a medium celluloid with flatwounds is cool - it grips the smoothness of the flats and pops the note. I wonder if the reason some players hate flats is because they're using a thick pick that slips on the string?

Listening to 50's Jim Hall, sounds like a medium pick to me - anybody know what Grant Green used?

[Philco]

I can't live without the note popping. For me (and this is really subjective) it says "guitar".
I don't want and don't have the "Benson" sound but I do love that pick attack.

Cos it's some aggression mixed with what is usually a lot of passive and sweet sounding textures.
Usually we play against very sweet chords. We use "nice" sounding arch tops playing "nice" melodies
It's a "soft" fest.
It's Cream on top of Ice Cream.
Apart from overdrive, the pick attack is something we can use a little aggressively.
It's a great juxtaposition.
Big fat flat wounds with a thinner pick, this =Attack-Decay-Release........ for me anyway.
It's a thin crust of chocolate on top of the Ice Cream

[fws6]

I switched from thick plastic dunlop picks to even thicker buffalo horn picks, for exactly that reason. The horn does not produce the harsh sounds. I buy the cheapo ones from ebay in bags of 12. Disadvantages are that i have to sand the tips a bit to he correct shape, as the person who makes them apparently never held a guitar. And they wear out faster than plastic

[jorgemg1984]

I have grown not to like the heavy pick / heavy flats / tone control rolled off / "jazz amp" with lots of bass and no treble sound.

I used pro plecs for a long time. Heavy picks are harder to play fast and loose a lot of dynamics... I have changed to Fender XH (with the side) and I have much more dynamics / cut trough treble / speed than with Pro Plecs. Never looked back..

[rpguitar]

I have also avoided heavy picks for years now, on all guitars from a Strat strung with nickel 10's to my acoustic archtops with bronze 12's. I primarily use Dunlop Tortex in yellow (0.73mm), green (0.88), or occasionally even the orange (0.60). They are thinner than the stereotypical jazz pick but made of a soft material, which makes for an ideal combination for a wide range of dynamic expression.

[FrankyNoTone]

...Jim Dunlop M-L from his pocket and gave it to me to use on the 12 string. I've been using them ever since. $.60 each!!!

The only M-L or medium lights that I know of from Dunlop are these Gels:


The (polycarbonate) Gels are very nice picks, a nice bright/clean tone complement to celluloid. I like the heavy and extra heavy gauges.

As for light picks, my median gauge is around 1.5mm but sometimes I use sub-1.0mm gauges when I'm in a happy/snappy/clicky mood.

[Philco]

They're the ones. If you strike the string sideways the sound is wonderful with these. Then you can turn the face slightly as you are picking for a cleaner and more attacking sound on the bass strings. There is something about that material that makes it cling to your fingers yet slide off the strings.

[DRS]

I find "strum" and "jazz guitar" as incongruous.

[Woody Sound]

I find "strum" and "jazz guitar" as incongruous.

LOL. A lot of people would say that about "picking" too, especially if you add "grinning."

[rpguitar]

I find "strum" and "jazz guitar" as incongruous.

That's a fairly narrow-minded view although on the surface I understand the reaction.

There is a lot more to jazz guitar than fluidly flat-picked single-note lines on an electric guitar with flatwounds. If you go back to the 30's and 40's you will find quite a lot of strumming in the rhythmic accompaniment techniques of the early players. Strumming is not just James Taylor or Pete Townshend's classic part on "Pinball Wizard." Nor is it only Freddie Green style four to the bar stabs using 3 note chords and mile-high action.

In any case, strumming, muting/choking, free and rest stroke flat-picking, fingerstyle, playing with a heavy or light touch - it's all relevant and that's why the choice of plectrum can be so confounding. Each technique seems to like a slightly different pick, but you can only use one at a time.

[ColinO]

I find "strum" and "jazz guitar" as incongruous.

I'll let Wes know he's doing it wrong.

[DRS]

You think Wes strummed his guitar?

[FrankyNoTone]

I'm a single note or double stop kinda player and never really got into strumming... too cowboy for me. But, I sometimes let the notes ring after a very fast swept pick arpeggio....

[ColinO]

You think Wes strummed his guitar?

Yes I do.

[AmundLauritzen]

I started out using Jazz III's which I used for some time before moving on to the thicker Dunlop JazzTone picks.

For a while I used Wegen 3.5mm picks, and for the last two years or so I have been using the Wegen BigCity 1.8mm pick exclusively for all guitars, which is the pick that Stochelo Rosenberg uses.

However, like you I find it impractical for chords, but only on electric. On the Selmer copy that I play, I have no such problems.
But when strumming chords on archtops I do get that problem with pick noise and all that.

So I am considering using a lighter pick for archtops. So far I have been comping fingerstyle on archtops, which for me is by large the desired sound because it allows me more control over each voice and how I want them to ring.


Some people say, "don't worry about picks" but I couldn't disagree more because it radically affects playing mechanics and sound. You have to find the one that matches your playing style and sound the most. For Selmer copy guitars, I'm there with the Wegen BigCity. For archtops, not quite. Still got some searching to do.

My thoughts on the topic.

Don't be afraid to experiment! A few months ago I completely revamped my right hand technique for electric guitar. It HAS paid off. Side note, but it's an example where trying something new either gives you a whole new perspective, or you find something that does NOT work that you can eliminate altogether. More is learned either way

[SamBooka]

I'll let Wes know he's doing it wrong.

Funny.. the first name that came to my mind was Freddy

[Spook410]

Guess you know I was kidding 3625. Wish amps were as easy to try out as picks. There will be as many opinions as there are playing styles. Some thoughts..
- Thicker picks don't necessarily mean more pick noise: Ultem, Dunlop Jazz, Blue Chip et. al. don't generate a lot of pick noise as the width goes up.
- On dynamics, I can play just as softly with a thick pick or I can dig in to a string in a way not possible with a thin pick so this one is counter-intuitive to me. Easy enough to go try it to see if I can relate.
- Strumming in jazz: All of gypsy jazz. All of big band. A bunch of everything else. Seems a basic part of what a guitar will do in a percussive and/or chordal role.
- I don't understand Blue Chip picks. A bit dull but in an OK way like a Dunlop Jazz which they sound a whole lot like to my ears. Had to try one. Not the best application of $50.
- I've settled on Vpicks for now. To me, nothing generates a more acoustic sound.

[uburoibob]

I find "strum" and "jazz guitar" as incongruous.

Freddie Green, or anyone comping chords, might just have something to say about that...

Bob

[uburoibob]

I have found that the material the pick is made of has a lot more to do with tone than the thickness. Well, at leas an equal amount. The shape, as well. I recently did the "Buy a couple of every kind in many gauges" test and tried them with all my guitars - teles, acoustic archtops, electric archtops, solid bodies, hollowbodies, different pickups - you get the picture. Amazing what you can learn that way. And yes, of course HOW you hold it, what your attack is like, what kind of strings you use and so much more play into this. One thing that is consistent - the thinner the pick the more treble/presence you'll have on the attack on your lower strings. But even with thin picks, you can get 'chirp' if you have material that chirps.

Bob